We need more space maps! - Page 3

We need more space maps!

Discuss maps & map creation - from concept to execution to the ever elusive release.

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manored
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Post by manored »

smoth wrote:lol, I did not really respond fast I was done watching tv and responded to opt then saw your response sorry about that.


As far as gundam specific maps. It plays well on 20X20 maps. Thing is that this thread was largely ignored until optimus decided to turn on the gas and wait for an open spark. You might not have a lot of love for me but to say that I was the head of this current heated discussion is not true.
Doesnt matters who is the head, you puted wood on the fire too... :P

And you did it again, but i guess I just need to learn to edit faster... :P

And Optimus if you still want to save this topic from the bigger and hotter flamewar I ever saw on this forum you better stop feeding the fire yourself...
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smoth
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Post by smoth »

LOL, that is twice..

I was replying to his statement about ..
Why not make it even more perfect and more popular instad of wasting your time with crap mods like FF?
In my eyes ff could be great mod just that Opt didn't do it right. I do not think helping any mod is a waste. I like variety in my spring.
manored
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Post by manored »

smoth wrote:LOL, that is twice..

I was replying to his statement about ..
Why not make it even more perfect and more popular instad of wasting your time with crap mods like FF?
In my eyes ff could be great mod just that Opt didn't do it right. I do not think helping any mod is a waste. I like variety in my spring.
Try to be less rude so, and maybe explain exacly what you hate in his version of FF so much...

And why you write .. instead of ... ? Its so weird... :P

Edit: after studing the origins of this flamewar a little more (flamewars are a interesting forum phenomenon (is that how you write that word?) and so I cannot miss this chance of learning more about how people minds works! :P ) I reached to a conclusion you will probaly disagre and dislike: you started it... it may be true that optimus is a person that dont respect others (I dont know him so I cant say for sure altough it looks like yes) but the topic was going fine until your first post...

And I think that he didnt meant to put xta down, just chosed his words VERY BADLY to express his opinions about it (so much that im still trying to understand what he said :P ) .
Last edited by manored on 26 Feb 2007, 03:39, edited 1 time in total.
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smoth
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Post by smoth »

I tried in the past but no such luck.
manored
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Post by manored »

smoth wrote:I tried in the past but no such luck.
Third on a row! Shall I give you a prize? :P

Tell then to me. I wanna check em myself. If Optimus doesnt believes you because he thinks you have something against him, maybe he will believe me (neutral on all this) if I reach to the same conclusion.
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smoth
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Post by smoth »

It is mostly the growth needed for economy, how ships were balanced etc. If you have TA try the origonal version. You will see what I mean. I have to get ready for my classes tommorrow and I would have to fire up FF and play a few matches to give you a full list.

The Main issue was the way the stats were changed, turrets did not work correctly becuase they now functioned in odd ways. The introduction of many pointless units etc. That is part of the reason I wanted to REDO FF. However, I have been really drilling gundam's balance and helping other mods so I got sidetracked.

Either way... I gotta run. Just look at the origonal mod. you will see it pretty clearly. In honesty I wish I had a second me to set on the task of going through it right now.

There are a lot of bad things but I have to run. Look this is going to be a busy week for me. I'll get with you about it maybe this weekend depending on my professors.
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Fanger
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Post by Fanger »

What is there to tell, you NEED to get to tech 3 in order to produce even lvl 2 units in a quantity that doesnt fail hard. You need 200-300 metal income to even attempt to start some sort of decent production, and more if you want to really do useful things, however your economy is still based on TA scaled metal extractors, and makers, so yeah imagine how much you have to resource to get that in BA and its the same in FF, BUT you NEED it in FF.. Every single unit has been altered to conform to a rock paper scissors configuration, which means 1 unit is ONLY good against maybe 2-3 other units meaning that either you need to build EVERYTHING (difficult to do) or you need to hope your opponent doesnt have the right forces to counter yours.

The commander is VERY powerful especially early in the game where his Dgun that doesnt require an order to fire can annihilate a fighter or clump in a single shot, the commander can even fight of a frigate or 2 no problem, this means com rushing becomes a neccessary strategy instead of some sort of option, and for the most part there is no serious draw back to using your comm aggressively, and every disadvantage to failing to do this. Because of this some of the early defences have been setup to do extra massive damage against the commander to try and preven this causing a further Rock Paper Scissors issue. This means that it is very easy to be lame early in the game.. the commander also doesnt explode, gives very little resources compared with how much you need and has a limited build amount that he quickly becomes expendable another lacked disadvantage to losing him.

Because of the extremely steep income costs and the fact that they JUMP up so rapidly, the early units are not useful to maybe later in game when they can be spammed in a large enough group to make a difference, this means what would normally be early game harrassment and attacks is extremely limited. Instead you have a much longer build up period in which sometimes people make probing attacks but with much larger forces than might be expected. These attacks are usually easily delt with by the presence of your commander and building some light turrets, not to many. The teir 2 fighters are also only additionally useful in large hoards, in fact most units are useless unless massed except maybe the heavier tier 3 stuff and the tier 4 units.

There are several units whose balance is and implementation, including the "hotdog of death" titan unit core gets which is advertised as having no weakness, and whose apparent balance idea was meant to be DONT LET YOUR ENEMY BUILD ONE!.. (I hate that mentality) and the ARM ods builder which alows you to build combat effective units anywhere on the map, now granted these retard units are easy to reclaim given they build so fast, but still, all your opponent needs to do is scout your base and he can BUILD UNITS IN IT, some defences can handle this but the issues with this are needless to say apparent.

The game itself plays SLOW, it takes forever to build up the economy necessary to produce a force of note, and once you do said force can disappear in a flurry of explosions..
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Ishach
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Post by Ishach »

no!!!
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Neddie
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Post by Neddie »

Ishach wrote:no!!!
Issac, I love you man, but please.
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1v0ry_k1ng
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Post by 1v0ry_k1ng »

rock paper sicssors balance fails hard.
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Optimus Prime
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Post by Optimus Prime »

I personally know next to nothing about FF apart from its currant modder and what i have seen here. You are desperately trying to take the moral high ground here but the more u try the more u look like a jerk.

Do yourself a favour and no matter what u may believe listen to what Fanger and Smoth have to say........

If your going to flame other mods/modders explain why and have backup (perhaps more than just what u have to say and someone else who has to say the same thing ....?) not just ur word against the some of the modding community who have proven themselves to be fan conscious, and helpful where-ever possible.
and thats where you failed. You dont know what happened in the past.

1. i dont flame other mods or show me some quotes where i did. Please read my posts carefully! I did it with gundam only in this thread because of smoth...

2. you think fanger and smoth are such great nice modders. Open your eyes. Ok you cant know what happened in the past, but i can tell you this. There were several FF threads where Smoth and Min3 tried to make FF "better". For them better meant to make it faster in every way, delete the rock paper system and cut most of the t3 units.
The problem with all this was, that the only person who gave suggestions AND played FF was min 3. Smoth played it perhaps a hand full of games, the rest were just (call it) friends of them who tried to support their ideas who never played any FF game.
Than on the other side there were and are people in the lobby with them i played hundred of FF games and who enjoyed it like it was and is exactly because it is so different from AA and XTA.
So what should i do? Min3 was a total rusher player and if i had made his changes, the normal game length would be cut by at least the half.
I decided to follow the original path of FF to let it be EPIC in every way and thats how it is and feels!
Just play it some games and you will see after a couple of games that i m right.

But now begins the bad part of the story. When they noticed that i m not willing to listen to them, the began to really spam my threads, not normal spam but they became that rude that the whole thread must be cleaned and closed. I decided to never make a new FF thread because of them. They werent able to discuss on a normal level and other neutral persons told me that Min3 and Smoth are the biggest assholes here in the forum. Sure they have the longtimebonus, but that doesnt make them better. They CAN be nice but thats it.

Now back to the balance things Fang and Smoth wrote some lines above:
I dont know how bad players you both are, but its absoluteley not true, that you need an hour for a good economy! I played so much games, i should know how fast you can attack. You dont even need to go tech 2 for a rush. Just one example where one of my allies killed all 3 opponents with fighters and gunships in combination with his commander.
however your economy is still based on TA scaled metal extractors
and again a quote that shows me that you have absoluteley no idea about FF. The metal extractors in lvl 1 give the player 0.0026 metal while an AA extractor 0.0009. Thats tripple the amount of metal.
Every single unit has been altered to conform to a rock paper scissors configuration, which means 1 unit is ONLY good against maybe 2-3 other units meaning that either you need to build EVERYTHING (difficult to do) or you need to hope your opponent doesnt have the right forces to counter yours.
and thats how it shall be. Perhaps you didnt noticed it, but FF plays in space. You cant have a mixed army like in AA with Air, Water and Land units. Without this system every player would ONLY build one or lets say 2 different units. Do you like this? Do you want games where people just choose the best unit for everything? Think about a mod with ONLY water units (without subs) and now tell me how you want to make 50 units per side usefull. Not only 1 or 2. Sure the range and speed can vary, but thats not enough...
The commander is VERY powerful
whats the problem with this? Its different from other mods ok, but i like it! You can defend good against him and comm rushing is very very rare. In Sup Com the commander is also strong and people there want him even stronger.
Because of the extremely steep income costs and the fact that they JUMP up so rapidly, the early units are not useful to maybe later in game when they can be spammed in a large enough group to make a difference, this means what would normally be early game harrassment and attacks is extremely limited. Instead you have a much longer build up period in which sometimes people make probing attacks but with much larger forces than might be expected. These attacks are usually easily delt with by the presence of your commander and building some light turrets, not to many. The teir 2 fighters are also only additionally useful in large hoards, in fact most units are useless unless massed except maybe the heavier tier 3 stuff and the tier 4 units.
this is also not true. And here comes the rock paper scissor system. Noobs often use only tier 3 units because they think OMFG they are so big, they must beat everything, but then i send my gunships in and win with less than 40% of metal costs. Exactly THIS is the reason why i used a rock paper system to make low tech units usefull!
now granted these retard units are easy to reclaim given they build so fast, but still, all your opponent needs to do is scout your base and he can BUILD UNITS IN IT, some defences can handle this but the issues with this are needless to say apparent.
also not true. Since the last or the version before, you cant reclaim them fast. Also you cant build them in bases because BEFORE the teleporter starts building there is a scripted timer which is 30 sec i think. In this time there would be only the groundplate in the base and a single shot of every unit would destroy the ODS.
The game itself plays SLOW
if you dont know how to manage your economy thats true, but thats for every mod. I am at a level where i can say for myself, that i like the long epic battles. The battles need longer than in other mods thats true, but thats exactly why i love this mod more than all others. You get a feeling of real battles which need not just some seconds.
It is mostly the growth needed for economy, how ships were balanced etc. If you have TA try the origonal version
I played OTA FF very often, but the game balance failed completely. You could win with just one single sort of units and i did it over and over again. Like i posted some lines above, tell me how you can make all units usefull in a game where only water units (without subs) are usefull. Sure you can make some groups like ling range, fast or strng units, but you will find ONE type of unit which will own all others...
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AF
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Post by AF »

optimus you cna balance for long battles without resorting to long buildtimes and low resources.

However I have a few points.

Smoth and the rest who made all the variants of FF your saying that enver got played, well idneed they never got played, not because they where bad but because of you and my next point.

FF isnt popular because of you or anything done by anyone since it was ported to spring. FF has players because they remember OTA's version fo FF and want to try it in spring. This whole mod and all its versions and variants arent popular because they're good or anything you or smoth have done, they have players because they're riding on the success of the original mod creators. You havent made FF brilliant. Your not why its n# 3. nobody on this forum has the right to lay claim to any success from FF, all the credit rightly goes to the original creators.

Optimus, you're no more qualified than smoth to comment on FF's balance, indeed it can be argued that smoths more qualified because he actually listens to his users and asks them specifically whats unbalanced whereas you dont. Optimus, you need no credit, technically you dont even deserve it because its not your mod, you just 'maintain the most popular variant'.

As for the whole space map thing, Argh really has the wrong idea. SM3 is a very bad idea for space maps, a very very very very very very bad idea. The entire approach to space maps people here have is 100% wrong, its made of fail its deluded. It seems nobody ahs read my space map posts on smoths forums, nobody has seen the light and seen how its possible to make maps that look so brilliant they make the best spring maps look like dirt, and how amazingly easy and simple they are than you'd think. Spring can have space maps that look prettier than homeworld 2, yet everybodies barking up the wrong tree and trying to use the OTA method which results in maps that look uglier than those in 10 year old games.

sinbadEV almost had it, he was so close, why did nobody else figure it out? why did nobody else bother listening to him?
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Optimus Prime
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Post by Optimus Prime »

you are right in some points, but not in all... a lot of FF players who play it now never heard of FF before or even OTA they dont know.
Also you think that i dont listen to anyone and thats also wrong. I have some FF players in my ICQ list and with them i m communicating. I also get sometimes PMs.. just on friday i got a PM where someone wants to make the ressurrction ships better and i discussed with him how and told him that i want to check it when i have my new pc.
Also the last version was double checked by Kovin and he gave me some important hints for the last version.
Than there are others in the lobby who PM me very often. Not only about FF but also about War Evo.
So dont think that i m not listening to everyone only because i m not that active in this forum.
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Peet
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Post by Peet »

Optimus Prime wrote: 1. i dont flame other mods or show me some quotes where i did. Please read my posts carefully! I did it with gundam only in this thread because of smoth...

2. you think fanger and smoth are such great nice modders. Open your eyes.
1: LULS read your own posts

2: LULS open your eyes and take a lil' look at EE or gundam...they have a semblance of real balance.
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Optimus Prime
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Post by Optimus Prime »

P3374H wrote: 1: LULS read your own posts

2: LULS open your eyes and take a lil' look at EE or gundam...they have a semblance of real balance.
1. can you do more than just spam unproven sentences in here.. give me some quotes!

2. yes and you are the godfather of rts games who can decide that.

sorry, but i m sick of stupid posts like this one with NO REAL content. If you wanna discuss, discuss with arguments and not with some randomly spammed sentences.
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Fanger
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Post by Fanger »

AF... there is no way in HELL, we could currently out pretty Homeworld 2 maps... im sorry that is not going to happen..
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Neddie
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Post by Neddie »

Fanger wrote:AF... there is no way in HELL, we could currently out pretty Homeworld 2 maps... im sorry that is not going to happen..
Well, we could, but it would require a massive map in terms of hard drive space and effort, yet couldn't be more than 16x16.
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AF
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Post by AF »

The majority of homeworld maps detail lies in their skyboxes. A homeworld type map wouldnt be huge in filesize, it'd just have a very detailed and pretty skybox with associated lighting settings.
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Neddie
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Post by Neddie »

At the moment, we would need dynamic features, faked terrain texturing in the void water, a professional quality skybox, and the best metal placement possible.

Of course, my idea I posted here is designed to have the first option, while sticking to the OTA space map scheme, so it can be released in a reasonable amount of time. The one I posted on Smoth's forum is... well, that will be half texturing and half skybox. I honestly think I would need Ice, Picasso or Forboding to take care of it, but if I wanted it perfect, I might as well get all three.
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Peet
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Post by Peet »

Optimus Prime wrote:1. can you do more than just spam unproven sentences in here.. give me some quotes!

2. yes and you are the godfather of rts games who can decide that.

sorry, but i m sick of stupid posts like this one with NO REAL content. If you wanna discuss, discuss with arguments and not with some randomly spammed sentences.
1. you're doing exactly the same thing

2. no, i'm not, but I have the same opinion as a number of others who actually happen to know what balance is. Your uberexperience 1337 madness players are generally speedmetal and greenfields players on other mods. Why do you THINK these modders and mappers feel you have alienated them?

tbfh, that post of mine contained exactly as much content as yours, with fewer words.
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