General map suggestion

General map suggestion

Discuss maps & map creation - from concept to execution to the ever elusive release.

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CarRepairer
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General map suggestion

Post by CarRepairer » 15 Nov 2011, 18:04

I feel all maps should look like the following 3 maps:

Tropical - surrounded by water
Apophis - surrounded by "empty space"
Seth's Ravine - surrounded by foggy cliffs

What do mappers think of an effort to convert some existing maps to use these techniques and solve the immersion issues of sharp map edges? I think it would be a huge improvement to replace some of the popular maps in spring and it would improve spring's image. Apologies if someone suggested this already.
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smoth
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Re: General map suggestion

Post by smoth » 15 Nov 2011, 19:43

Do not want. Not all games are some weird virtual space. Do me a favor and leave my maps out of this "effort". I was pretty happy with KR'S widget honestly.

isolated island: I was the first to do this and hated the idea of an isolated island after I did it because there was nothing in the distance, I fought this best I could by having ships "hanging" off the map like in gunmetal.

Surrounded by void: It is ok for sureal stuff like space or kp maps but otherwise, I like seeing mountains in the distance.

Surrounded by fog: map preview doesn't show this so people will place start boxes in no access areas.. I fucking hate start boxes sometimes, fucking things should be defined by the mapper... Powered gms in gundam swan dive off maps into the intended not-accessible voids. Units get stuck in borders etc....


I am offended by the move to make all spring maps more alike. I think 90% of the spring maps are crap looking and honestly I don't want to be headlocked into some lesser art style because others are not going to raise their level of effort.

Spring is not a game don't try and assume we all are going to have the same art style or force one on us. I VIOLENTLY disagree with seeing spring as one game with one style and earnestly request, no demand that you NOT do this to my work. I am not sorry, don't degrade my work!
Those are my thoughts for what it's worth.
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SirArtturi
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Re: General map suggestion

Post by SirArtturi » 15 Nov 2011, 20:55

Umm... I think he just wants that every map should solve the hard map edge issue somehow, not that every map actually look the same.

Anyway, very good solutions have been provided here:
http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=26732

So, theres just no need to redo every map, just impelent solution.
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CarRepairer
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Re: General map suggestion

Post by CarRepairer » 15 Nov 2011, 21:59

I remember that thread, but I thought that the limiting-playarea solutions would cause more problems than they solve.

I'll illustrate my point another way. When I am at the corner of tabula, I see the abyss into the skybox below, or water depending on my water settings. If I'm going to see that anyway, why not smooth it out? The edge of ccr is already void, why not make ccr into a rectangular apophis so the void looks nicer? That's what I'm getting at.

Not familiar with smoth's maps but regardless I intended that we'd seek the blessing of the map author on a per-map basis (I wish I had said this in my first post).

I have no mapping skills but if someone wanted to help me learn to do some gruntwork I would be willing.
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SirArtturi
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Re: General map suggestion

Post by SirArtturi » 15 Nov 2011, 22:26

The last solution, KR's one, which smoth also implemented in reality, doesnt change anything but just holograms the heightmap. So, no artificial play area limits...
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smoth
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Re: General map suggestion

Post by smoth » 15 Nov 2011, 22:39

I like kr's solution a lot. It just has a few issues. If those were fixed it would be AWESOME. I just don't know no gl... so hey car.. you are willing to do some grunt work right?!?!
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KaiserJ
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Re: General map suggestion

Post by KaiserJ » 15 Nov 2011, 22:45

the problem i can see with changing map edges using a gadget is that it won't account for burned-in shadowing (and could conceivably change the intended game play... flying planes along the border trench for instance... or weirdness with features at the edge)

it would work for maps that are of an older style (no AO, shadows etc)

the other approach would be to figure out a quick way of remaking maps (i'm thinking old maps, put into worldmachine, with a procedure to turn map edges into cliffs might be nice and fast) and then it's a matter of redoing the metalmaps etc

i can offer advice on technical aspects but really my thing is working really hard on maps up to 95% and then abandoning them because starting over is more fun!
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smoth
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Re: General map suggestion

Post by smoth » 15 Nov 2011, 22:53

KaiserJ wrote:the problem i can see with changing map edges using a gadget is that it won't account for burned-in shadowing (and could conceivably change the intended game play... flying planes along the border trench for instance... or weirdness with features at the edge)
Worked fine for me, I tried it on all the gundam maps. Unless I misunderstand you.
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SirArtturi
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Re: General map suggestion

Post by SirArtturi » 15 Nov 2011, 22:59

I didn't understand his problem.

His problem is obviously that he cant finish his maps, which should be our highest concern over here -- the last wip of yours was the kind of awesomeness you rarely see here.
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SirArtturi
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Re: General map suggestion

Post by SirArtturi » 15 Nov 2011, 23:06

Remaking maps are always remaking maps, its a massive amount of work regardless. I wouldnt be happy just to fix the map edges but to make whole retexturing etc.

What maps would be worth doing that? thats the question...
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CarRepairer
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Re: General map suggestion

Post by CarRepairer » 15 Nov 2011, 23:33

SirArtturi wrote:Remaking maps are always remaking maps, its a massive amount of work regardless. I wouldnt be happy just to fix the map edges but to make whole retexturing etc.

What maps would be worth doing that? thats the question...
Popular ones that many newcomers to spring will see. Such as those two I mentioned.
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smoth
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Re: General map suggestion

Post by smoth » 15 Nov 2011, 23:37

Players reject any pretty map updates... see the way they raged at behe's tabula update. :'(
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knorke
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Re: General map suggestion

Post by knorke » 16 Nov 2011, 00:55

the other thread has many suggestions on this and various Luas posted. Nothing new here?
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Johannes
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Re: General map suggestion

Post by Johannes » 16 Nov 2011, 03:43

Old maps are fine the way they are pretty much (ok some are just bad, but anyway), I don't fully like the idea of changing them at all, especially in ways that affect gameplay like adding semi-playable void to the edges. Not every map needs to be photorealistic anyway, old maps have their charm graphically too.
Exception is when there's a new version with clear vision of good gameplay tweaks in my eyes, at least when done by original author.

Why not just make a new map instead if you just want next gen graphics? It's not like the old maps are some holy grail of gameplay design that we must keep on playing.
Or if someone really wants to remake, say, DSD, please don't just keep it as-is otherwise and call it "DSD w/ new mapedges". Rather take the basic idea of DSD, narrow map with the basin, hills, ramps, etc. and take it a bit (or a bit more) in a new direction you find interesting. Then make a new texture and mapedge gadgets etc. and release it under a new name. Then you've provided a new interesting option, that looks good to boot, instead of just old rehashed stuff people won't play cause it's not the original.
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FLOZi
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Re: General map suggestion

Post by FLOZi » 16 Nov 2011, 19:39

Would quite like retextures of all Spiked's S44 maps if anyone is interested, I don't really have the time to properly discuss the ins and outs of other improvements we want atm. :(
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smoth
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Re: General map suggestion

Post by smoth » 16 Nov 2011, 20:21

when I FIND where to download WM2, if my new rig is fast enough, I may be able to help with that floz but someone else has to bother with all the SSMF shit, I CBA to do that.
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CarRepairer
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Re: General map suggestion

Post by CarRepairer » 17 Nov 2011, 03:20

The VR solution solves the issue of making spring look more professional. Unfortunately it does not solve the immersion issue. It will even ruin immersion in maps that already did solve it, such as the three I mentioned in the OP.
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smoth
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Re: General map suggestion

Post by smoth » 17 Nov 2011, 03:55

it can have exceptions where it doesn't load.. just sayin.. better to get that one working to cover all the maps which are MUCH MUCH worse without it.
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knorke
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Re: General map suggestion

Post by knorke » 17 Nov 2011, 03:57

CarRepairer wrote:It will even ruin immersion in maps that already did solve it, such as the three I mentioned in the OP.
Yup, that will suck. I do not want my endless river that extends beyond endless painted over with some pink VR grid thing :shock:

As I wrote earlier:
knorke wrote:...migt be problematic in the future, if mappers include their own tweaked versions with the map? (ie making a map with a flowing river that extends past map borders or a space/asteroid map that uses Lua to draw space or an island in an endless sea of lava)
So it would be maybe good to have some way to tell the widget to turn off? Maybe a WG.variable?
But such conflicts are not limited to just map edge widgets.
Lava map accidently burns all your game's neutral units, map forest fire gadget fights vs mod forest fire, suddendly a fuckton of trees everywhere when a map with regrowing trees meets a game with regrowing trees, map with noob-zone-wall breaks should a game decided that to make such thing a modoptions, feature placements fighting each other and so much more.

I foresee a luacaust
An angel of fail descending to destroy the springian race
fail fail, fail all around.


For my game I have decided that the maps will be just the heightmap and nothing else. The mod will do all the feature placing, map edge drawing and such things.

Now that might not be feasible for all mods.
But games must put out some guidelines they want maps to follow and what config files should be included, this "everything must be playable with everything" is fail.
A great disaster!
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smoth
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Re: General map suggestion

Post by smoth » 17 Nov 2011, 04:02

I agree knorke, there is no one size fits all. I am sure forward there may be conflicts but forward maps can deal with it..
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