Is there even want of maps anymore? - Page 2

Is there even want of maps anymore?

Discuss maps & map creation - from concept to execution to the ever elusive release.

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SirArtturi
Posts: 1164
Joined: 23 Jan 2008, 18:29

Re: Is there even want of maps anymore?

Post by SirArtturi »

We need better looking maps and now the technology and tools are making it possible. After that it's only up to you people to support those maps.

And there exactly lies the great paradox. People demand better looking maps but once they get them, they still prefer CCR. This is because the more realistic and better looking map you want, the more unplayable it gets.

It goes pretty much like this, and I'm telling it from the experience of feedbacks I got along the years I was in the business:

"Map is so bland, flat and boring and has bad crude edges: We want more color and height differentiation, features, cool stuff we want we want etc.!"

Then next day, when you got it, you whine that map is too noisy and busy, impossible to move anywehere, pathing problems, features are on the way, it's hard to distinguish my ugly BA units from it, the crude edges fixing fog is too hard for my stone age pc etc.

And here you go, back to CCR.

Then there is ofc the gameplay paradox:

"Boohoo, your map is way too difficult, gameplay is too nonlinear, enemy can flank me so easily and rape my unprotected base. Please make me a map where I can play safe.

Next day:

"Map is too porcy and too much metal."

And here you go, back to CCR.

The only way to deal with this kind of shit paradoxes, is to ignore them, and make maps for yourselves and for your buddies, do them with your own way and own vision. Otherwise you end up in a mental breakdown like me.
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SirArtturi
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Joined: 23 Jan 2008, 18:29

Re: Is there even want of maps anymore?

Post by SirArtturi »

And yes, as mentioned, there is still lot of niches like in FFA that beherith has been filling up. So yes we do need more maps, just cut the bullshit and play them. Get out of your comfort zone.
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KaiserJ
Community Representative
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Joined: 08 Sep 2008, 22:59

Re: Is there even want of maps anymore?

Post by KaiserJ »

in my mind at least i'm mapping for ZK and evo; BA players don't really seem to enjoy mine too much apart from chicken maps, so i'll concentrate my efforts towards those that appreciate them the most (would be happy to see games of BA on my maps, don't get me wrong, but the ZK guys are the ones who invariably go "oh cool map" and start playing immediately)

CCR is just about as basic a map texture as you can get. there's nothing BAD about it, its just very minimal and not the route i would have taken.

DsD however IS a bad map. on the surface it appears fine, but there are too many small errors ... people embrace it as "oh look at the depth of strategy" but the bottom line is that it's imbalanced for team-play especially in large groups (people can think what they want about the texture, it's immaterial when compared with flawed gameplay)
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SirArtturi
Posts: 1164
Joined: 23 Jan 2008, 18:29

Re: Is there even want of maps anymore?

Post by SirArtturi »

Indeed KaiserJ, BA scene does not put much weight on the looks, all that matters to them is gameplay.

Thats why Seths Ravine was basically designed for ZK as they appreciate new ideas and approaches. BA is stuck into the comfort zone and that's probably why the map never get much attention in BA: It's just too unconventional.

Anyway, basically I was saying that we really need better looking maps, which looks for progress and future and can be marketed for new players. Thats how we get the game evolving.
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KaiserJ
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Joined: 08 Sep 2008, 22:59

Re: Is there even want of maps anymore?

Post by KaiserJ »

tbh mapping is getting more and more enjoyable for me; as with seths ravine and some before and some after, i'm working more as a team with other mappers (or even in a support role) and i'm confident that the collaborative efforts going on as late will yield better maps than we had ever imagined possible
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MidKnight
Posts: 2650
Joined: 10 Sep 2008, 03:11

Re: Is there even want of maps anymore?

Post by MidKnight »

KaiserJ wrote:tbh mapping is getting more and more enjoyable for me; as with seths ravine and some before and some after, i'm working more as a team with other mappers (or even in a support role) and i'm confident that the collaborative efforts going on as late will yield better maps than we had ever imagined possible
This is a very well-written and inspiring post, but all I can think of when I'm reading it is Garwar.

...

pfhahahahahahaha :lol:
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FLOZi
MC: Legacy & Spring 1944 Developer
Posts: 6238
Joined: 29 Apr 2005, 01:14

Re: Is there even want of maps anymore?

Post by FLOZi »

S44, iw both have their own scale and can benefit from custom maps.

CT and kp have their own styles

Those are areas which could benefit from new maps to be sure.
This was going to be my response. There's huge scope and demand for game-specific maps. Although one problem is games having their own adequate feature sets.
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triton
Lobby Moderator
Posts: 330
Joined: 18 Nov 2009, 14:27

Re: Is there even want of maps anymore?

Post by triton »

SirArtturi's map are the best for small games you should do more maps!!!
I also want inverse heighmap in Throne bis :)
FFA map for 7 players max could be nice too.
Sprang
Posts: 37
Joined: 10 Oct 2008, 15:05

Re: Is there even want of maps anymore?

Post by Sprang »

There is never ever ever too many good maps!
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PicassoCT
Journeywar Developer & Mapper
Posts: 10379
Joined: 24 Jan 2006, 21:12

Re: Is there even want of maps anymore?

Post by PicassoCT »

Didnt Behe wrote a program creating maps, by combining and mirroring popular maps? Thus creating DeltaSiegeDuo, DeltaSiegeIslands and so on, and so forth? Once again the machines overcome the need for human labour- even in there sparetime, guess this is a ludist breach. Here robots hold my towell...
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Beherith
Moderator
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Joined: 26 Oct 2007, 16:21

Re: Is there even want of maps anymore?

Post by Beherith »

Duo was made by silent303, island was by TradeMark.
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PicassoCT
Journeywar Developer & Mapper
Posts: 10379
Joined: 24 Jan 2006, 21:12

Re: Is there even want of maps anymore?

Post by PicassoCT »

Such fancy names for smurf-programs.. he even became mod to hide his plans for worldconquest;)
Masure
Posts: 581
Joined: 30 Jan 2007, 15:23

Re: Is there even want of maps anymore?

Post by Masure »

triton wrote:I also want inverse heighmap in Throne bis :)
+1 :D
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Beherith
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Joined: 26 Oct 2007, 16:21

Re: Is there even want of maps anymore?

Post by Beherith »

Masure wrote:
triton wrote:I also want inverse heighmap in Throne bis :)
+1 :D
I dont quite understand why one would want this. It should be OK with 7 players, but for more, it punishes those in the center too much.

Already the people on the edges have a distinct advantage (geo spots, etc)
Kloot
Spring Developer
Posts: 1867
Joined: 08 Oct 2006, 16:58

Re: Is there even want of maps anymore?

Post by Kloot »

triton wrote: I also want inverse heighmap in Throne bis :)

Code: Select all

-- map_invert_height.lua
if (gadgetHandler:IsSyncedCode()) then
	function gadget:Initialize()
		local mapOptions = Spring.GetMapOptions()
		local minH, maxH = Spring.GetGroundExtremes()
		local mapX, mapZ = Game.mapSizeX / Game.squareSize, Game.mapSizeZ / Game.squareSize

		if (mapOptions.invertHeightMap) then
			Spring.SetHeightMapFunc(function()
				for x = 0, mapX do
					for z = 0, mapZ do
						local xw = x * Game.squareSize
						local zw = z * Game.squareSize
						local h = Spring.GetGroundHeight(xw, zw)
						Spring.SetHeightMap(xw, zw, minH + (maxH - h))
					end
				end
			end)
		end
	end
end
==>

http://imageshack.us/f/23/screen00000g.png/
BaNa
Posts: 1562
Joined: 09 Sep 2007, 21:05

Re: Is there even want of maps anymore?

Post by BaNa »

Throne could use a new version with inverse as a mapoption and lava as a mapoption. I set one up like that but lost the will toward the end.

btw there is a much simpler way to invert height, just setmaxheight 200 and setminheight 1000 or whatever values you want.
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smoth
Posts: 22309
Joined: 13 Jan 2005, 00:46

Re: Is there even want of maps anymore?

Post by smoth »

I do it easier that that. Bana that solutions assumes numbers not all maps have equal height.
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knorke
Posts: 7971
Joined: 22 Feb 2006, 01:02

Re: Is there even want of maps anymore?

Post by knorke »

you can read max/min height
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smoth
Posts: 22309
Joined: 13 Jan 2005, 00:46

Re: Is there even want of maps anymore?

Post by smoth »

knorke wrote:you can read max/min height
I am invisible
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hunterw
Posts: 1838
Joined: 14 May 2006, 12:22

Re: Is there even want of maps anymore?

Post by hunterw »

Beherith wrote:
Masure wrote:
triton wrote:I also want inverse heighmap in Throne bis :)
+1 :D
I dont quite understand why one would want this. It should be OK with 7 players, but for more, it punishes those in the center too much.

Already the people on the edges have a distinct advantage (geo spots, etc)
Wouldn't the edge people also have a shitload of flat, featureless highground land all the way to the corners with inverted heightmap?
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