First let me say that this is not a case against attracting students in order to advance engine development, but it's an explanation of the difficulties you would face while relying on recruiting students. I'm strictly speaking of coursework here, what people choose to do on their free time is far less predictable.
Undergrads
An undergrad course in the EU usually only contains a few weeks of project work - if you are lucky. In those cases topics are often handpicked by the teacher and/or awarded to students who can motivate their choice strongly.
Having researched the spring engine in their spare time might be a good argument to show that a spring project would be feasible. Failing that, a moderately skeptical teacher is to be expected, with good reason.
Less scrutinous teachers might simply place more emphasis on the result, leaving the student to take full responsibility. This places a responsibility on spring devs to not set up students to fail by taking on too much work.
Grad students
Master's students able and willing to undertake larger jobs are fewer in number. By this time, many who had a passion for game development may have re-aligned their areas of interest to more closely fit into traditional academia. Furthermore, Professors at conservative/elite universities may balk at the idea of allowing students to practice game development inside one of their advanced courses.
Conclusion
I hesitate to say this, but perhaps commercializing might be in the best interest of the community. The biggest obstacle I know of would be to un-GPL the code committed by people long gone and/or unwilling to give their permission. On the other hand, it is also one reason to abandon spring and start a new project.
Spring developer crisis
Moderator: Moderators
Re: Spring developer crisis
Giant non-sequitur, right there. 
+1 to gajop, and 'advertising' in uni is a good idea.
+1 to gajop, and 'advertising' in uni is a good idea.
Re: Spring developer crisis
Not going to happen.Cheesecan wrote:un-GPL the code
Also, GPL engine doesn't exclude commercial games.
Re: Spring developer crisis
i also think "promoting" on unis would be most effective. we already got some contributions from uni projects. afaik mostly ai's were an uni project.
afaik some course used spring to teach ai-programming, but sadly they implemented something like a small framework which forced the students to use an old version of spring. would be good if teachers doing something like this, contact us and maybe there is a way to integrate it directly into spring, but thats a bit off topic already...
@cheesescan:
i don't think changing springs license will ever happen, to many already old authors :) it seems already possible to use spring and sell the game.
a rewrite is imo to much work and i don't see any current dev is willing to do so.
afaik some course used spring to teach ai-programming, but sadly they implemented something like a small framework which forced the students to use an old version of spring. would be good if teachers doing something like this, contact us and maybe there is a way to integrate it directly into spring, but thats a bit off topic already...
@cheesescan:
i don't think changing springs license will ever happen, to many already old authors :) it seems already possible to use spring and sell the game.
a rewrite is imo to much work and i don't see any current dev is willing to do so.
Re: Spring developer crisis
So... I'm in Europe (not EU, but we study under the Bologna process/standard), and I've recently finished my MsC in computer science & software engineering and onwards to a PhD. I'm also a teaching assistant at a couple of courses (currently freshmen-level stuff).
While I was an undergrad, I've had a couple of Spring-related stuff as graded projects:
1) Simple skirmish Spring/Starcraft AI for the Introduction to AI class
2) ER/SQL model & implementation of the planned springgrid site for the Introduction to Databases class
Looking at it retrospectively I could've also made a Spring project in the HCI/Graphics classes, but I was working at a robotics competition and decided to create a robot simulator in Qt/GL instead.
So, even while my example (I think AF also did something similar) could be used to debunk your statement, I think the idea with this is something else entirely.
Student projects are never meant to be anything more than a proof of concept, and they are not supposed to focus on implementation details, but rather on simple implementations of key concepts learned at the class. These projects most often aren't meant to be worked on after the course is over, as it's about what you learn from them that counts, the software itself has little value.
Students themselves however, especially freshmen and sophomore level are often still interested in the things that brought them to the comp-sci / SE fields, and in many cases that's games. All we have to do is spark an interest in them, and the ones that are persistent may prove invaluable to the community, as they mature.
Some students will choose topics that could be integrated in their courses, where possible, but that's just an extra something that would make their studying more fun while still learning whatever they're supposed to in the course.
While I was an undergrad, I've had a couple of Spring-related stuff as graded projects:
1) Simple skirmish Spring/Starcraft AI for the Introduction to AI class
2) ER/SQL model & implementation of the planned springgrid site for the Introduction to Databases class
Looking at it retrospectively I could've also made a Spring project in the HCI/Graphics classes, but I was working at a robotics competition and decided to create a robot simulator in Qt/GL instead.
So, even while my example (I think AF also did something similar) could be used to debunk your statement, I think the idea with this is something else entirely.
Student projects are never meant to be anything more than a proof of concept, and they are not supposed to focus on implementation details, but rather on simple implementations of key concepts learned at the class. These projects most often aren't meant to be worked on after the course is over, as it's about what you learn from them that counts, the software itself has little value.
Students themselves however, especially freshmen and sophomore level are often still interested in the things that brought them to the comp-sci / SE fields, and in many cases that's games. All we have to do is spark an interest in them, and the ones that are persistent may prove invaluable to the community, as they mature.
Some students will choose topics that could be integrated in their courses, where possible, but that's just an extra something that would make their studying more fun while still learning whatever they're supposed to in the course.
Re: Spring developer crisis
Oh and since I mentioned Spring projects that can be integrated as a part of a student's course, let me mention what I'm doing now.
As I said, I'm currently taking a PhD course in comp-sci and one of the classes is mathematical logic.
For that course I was allowed to take an Agent-planning task (simple AI problem described in first order logic) represented in OWL/RDF with SWRL rules (The Semantic Web components).
That agent-planning solver may be used to create scenario (mission) agnostic AIs, for certain types of problems.
Note, this is a pure research topic, which will point out at the possibilities and difficulties of representing "real-world" problems with The Semantic Web and solving it with existing SWRL/OWL reasoners.
It's not something that will be realized in that shape or form, due to many factors, but it may be used by future developers/researches as a basis of a similar AI topic.
Sorry if I've gone offtopic, just wanted to mention Spring can be used for course projects easily.
As I said, I'm currently taking a PhD course in comp-sci and one of the classes is mathematical logic.
For that course I was allowed to take an Agent-planning task (simple AI problem described in first order logic) represented in OWL/RDF with SWRL rules (The Semantic Web components).
That agent-planning solver may be used to create scenario (mission) agnostic AIs, for certain types of problems.
Note, this is a pure research topic, which will point out at the possibilities and difficulties of representing "real-world" problems with The Semantic Web and solving it with existing SWRL/OWL reasoners.
It's not something that will be realized in that shape or form, due to many factors, but it may be used by future developers/researches as a basis of a similar AI topic.
Sorry if I've gone offtopic, just wanted to mention Spring can be used for course projects easily.
Re: Spring developer crisis
gajop wrote:Besides no one needs to attract the attention of your average attention span facebook reader (still suggest we use fb/g+), unless you are going to write "Spring RTS" on a cat.
Re: Spring developer crisis
Regarding introducing college people to Spring: I had a lot of luck introducing spring to the game development club at my school. We made a really cool game in about 10 weeks that would have been totally out of reach without using spring as a basis. The big pain point was actually just picking a mod to use as a platform (we ended up using Conflict Terra, of all things, and I did a bunch of work stripping it out).
Of course, one of the big reasons it worked so well was that I was there to be the resident 'Spring expert' -- but the documentation has improved a lot since then. It would probably be feasible to run something like an 'RTS game jam' at a uni with a gamedev club and at least one person who was pretty familiar with spring game development.
Of course, one of the big reasons it worked so well was that I was there to be the resident 'Spring expert' -- but the documentation has improved a lot since then. It would probably be feasible to run something like an 'RTS game jam' at a uni with a gamedev club and at least one person who was pretty familiar with spring game development.
Re: Spring developer crisis
The image from poster is really nice but more suited for the About section of website, to explain what Spring is.
For printing and putting on bulletin boards it is not so good imo, for example it misses these paper strip things that you can rip off and have contact info/URL on it.
It is also way "too full" while at the same it is hard to see what it is about. Good bulletin board notes have a GIANT HEADING, description, contact info. Biggest problem: it does not make clear that Spring is an established project and there is no info about what is already done.
It looks like "I want to make game, need programmers, artists and sound people."
For printing and putting on bulletin boards it is not so good imo, for example it misses these paper strip things that you can rip off and have contact info/URL on it.
It is also way "too full" while at the same it is hard to see what it is about. Good bulletin board notes have a GIANT HEADING, description, contact info. Biggest problem: it does not make clear that Spring is an established project and there is no info about what is already done.
It looks like "I want to make game, need programmers, artists and sound people."
why no post? thats why we cant have nice things!We made a really cool game in about 10 weeks that would have been totally out of reach without using spring as a basis. The big pain point was actually just picking a mod to use as a platform (we ended up using Conflict Terra, of all things, and I did a bunch of work stripping it out).
Re: Spring developer crisis
What you prepare and deliver is dependent upon your goal and your target. If your target is purely university hobbyists and specialists, certainly a focused document - much like an academic paper - can be effective. However, this is a small segment to target, made up of people as deviant and uncommon as those who are already in this community. This is to say, I agree with many of your assertions gajop within the context of your delimited goals. However, effective messaging to a broader or more casual audience requires less information to reduce the demand on the viewer, and pursuing an single interest group rather than the multi-aspect hobbyist will involve more focused assets. I'm not saying you eschew the monolithic poster, but that perhaps we also produce and circulate other advertisements for different groups. Potential engine and AI developers do not have a single personality type, they do not come from a single education path, and they do not necessarily share the same interests. This means that there may be other viable messaging routes which we should consider.
I did make and posted pamphlets briefly while at University myself, primarily focused on Spring 1944. Even then though, there was the ever-present balance of complexity against accessibility; not to say successful advertising to broad groups is inherently simple - usually the opposite, as you have to think about messaging to and positioning for an audience which is different from you - but rather that it does not require too much of the viewer.
It is also important to remember that this isn't a value judgment, people are not less or more useful because they don't respond the same to a dense poster or paper. There are many factors that play into what a person will process, few of which have anything to do with their abilities. Just putting it on a social network, rather than in a magazine or pamphlet, will tend to reduce the average attention paid because of the user expectations and characteristics of use set by the medium. None of this is speculation in a vacuum, there are functioning business logics around advertising which rest upon psychology, and these share a great deal with interaction design.
All of that said, I think the poster is pretty awesome, and I'm glad you're putting one together.
I'll see if I can dig something else up to target a different group from a different direction.
I did make and posted pamphlets briefly while at University myself, primarily focused on Spring 1944. Even then though, there was the ever-present balance of complexity against accessibility; not to say successful advertising to broad groups is inherently simple - usually the opposite, as you have to think about messaging to and positioning for an audience which is different from you - but rather that it does not require too much of the viewer.
It is also important to remember that this isn't a value judgment, people are not less or more useful because they don't respond the same to a dense poster or paper. There are many factors that play into what a person will process, few of which have anything to do with their abilities. Just putting it on a social network, rather than in a magazine or pamphlet, will tend to reduce the average attention paid because of the user expectations and characteristics of use set by the medium. None of this is speculation in a vacuum, there are functioning business logics around advertising which rest upon psychology, and these share a great deal with interaction design.
All of that said, I think the poster is pretty awesome, and I'm glad you're putting one together.
I'll see if I can dig something else up to target a different group from a different direction.Re: Spring developer crisis
To all content devs, web devs, AI devs and so forth: what you are doing is picking the low hanging fruit.
This topic is about engine devs.
Re: Spring developer crisis
Anyone can become an engine developer, but I think it would be fair to say AI developers have a lower barrier to ascension. Furthermore, the more healthy the other segments are, the more demand and thus appeal there is for engine development, correct?
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Silentwings
- Posts: 3720
- Joined: 25 Oct 2008, 00:23
Re: Spring developer crisis
Certainly working on the engine has the steepest learning curve butTo all content devs, web devs, AI devs and so forth: what you are doing is picking the low hanging fruit.
that statement is simply not true. Who could possible describe the effort and skill that went into this: http://springfiles.com/spring/spring-ma ... ivervalley as low hanging fruit...
Re: Spring developer crisis
rather insulting and wrong. The post didn't need to be made and is not accurate or fair.Cheesecan wrote:
To all content devs, web devs, AI devs and so forth: what you are doing is picking the low hanging fruit.
This topic is about engine devs.
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FireStorm_
- Posts: 666
- Joined: 19 Aug 2009, 16:09
Re: Spring developer crisis
I'm finally happy with it, although I didn't change much.
-gradient background
-grey scale
I've read all the comments and considered the arguments.
But like for instance gajop said and the cat picture illustrated , also my personal opinion is that some (even slightly chaotic) elaboration is preferable to a very clear and attractive picture.
That doesn't mean I don't understand or agree with a lot of the arguments. But in the end I'm making a poster/flyer so I have to make the pragmatic decisions.
"You want it different? do it yourself!" And today I'm giving you this fantastic opportunity by sharing the .xcf (Gimp). (@ malric: Sorry for delay, but didn't want to share before mine was done.)
Finally I want to say, that from the start I never envisioned my poster to work solo. By which I mean I would hang around a bit to back it up with my sublime rhetoric when possible.
Many of the faculties in my town have student run bars where students and personnel come to wind down at the end of the afternoon. I'm quite familiar with the locations and I was planning on striking up a few conversations about spring (with focus on engine dev).
PS.
I can't add a 22mb zip (?), so pm me if you want the .xcf
-gradient background
-grey scale
I've read all the comments and considered the arguments.
But like for instance gajop said and the cat picture illustrated
, also my personal opinion is that some (even slightly chaotic) elaboration is preferable to a very clear and attractive picture. That doesn't mean I don't understand or agree with a lot of the arguments. But in the end I'm making a poster/flyer so I have to make the pragmatic decisions.
"You want it different? do it yourself!"
And today I'm giving you this fantastic opportunity by sharing the .xcf (Gimp). (@ malric: Sorry for delay, but didn't want to share before mine was done.)Finally I want to say, that from the start I never envisioned my poster to work solo. By which I mean I would hang around a bit to back it up with my sublime rhetoric when possible.
Many of the faculties in my town have student run bars where students and personnel come to wind down at the end of the afternoon. I'm quite familiar with the locations
and I was planning on striking up a few conversations about spring (with focus on engine dev).PS.
I can't add a 22mb zip (?), so pm me if you want the .xcf
Re: Spring developer crisis
My post wasn't meant to offend. I'm saying this as an ex-lobby dev and map maker. I also earn a living as a software developer.Silentwings wrote:Certainly working on the engine has the steepest learning curve butTo all content devs, web devs, AI devs and so forth: what you are doing is picking the low hanging fruit.
that statement is simply not true. Who could possible describe the effort and skill that went into this: http://springfiles.com/spring/spring-ma ... ivervalley as low hanging fruit...
You need only look at the number of engine developers vs content developers to see that what I said contains truth.Noun
low-hanging fruit (plural low-hanging fruits)
(idiomatic) Easily obtained gains; what can be obtained by readily available means.
Re: Spring developer crisis
*sigh* several content devs have made engine patches.Cheesecan wrote:You need only look at the number of engine developers vs content developers to see that what I said contains truth.Noun
low-hanging fruit (plural low-hanging fruits)
(idiomatic) Easily obtained gains; what can be obtained by readily available means.
Not all projects are *A.
not all content devs are mappers.
that is like saying all humans are mentally retarded because some are.
Re: Spring developer crisis
Well smoth you prove yet again that your natural inclination seems to be to argue against me, using as many fallacies as you can muster.smoth wrote:*sigh* several content devs have made engine patches.Cheesecan wrote:You need only look at the number of engine developers vs content developers to see that what I said contains truth.Noun
low-hanging fruit (plural low-hanging fruits)
(idiomatic) Easily obtained gains; what can be obtained by readily available means.
Not all projects are *A.
not all content devs are mappers.
that is like saying all humans are mentally retarded because some are.
1. Submitting a patch only makes you a contributor. An engine developer would be someone who contributes steadily over an extended period of time.
2. I have never claimed all projects are *A.
3. I have never claimed all content devs are mappers.
4. Not even worth replying to the last part.
Re: Spring developer crisis
you generalized that content developers only reach for low hanging fruit. I believe they are an entirely different aspect and discipline with clearly varied levels of depth and work.
We have derailed long enough. you have your opinion I have mine, we can argue another day.
We have derailed long enough. you have your opinion I have mine, we can argue another day.
Re: Spring developer crisis
This never was any serious war btw. jK is the guy I have the least problem with in this dev team, because he seems to respect democratic principles.Anarchid wrote:And those two are waging a war.AFAIK jK and zerver are about the only people left here with sufficient knowledge of the engine internals
Our "fight" was related to an attempt to make the pathfinder faster with OMP, but it turned out to be several times slower instead. The problem is corrected now I believe, so the argument is definitely over.