[IMPORTANT] 95.0 will got a new folder structure - Page 2

[IMPORTANT] 95.0 will got a new folder structure

Discuss the source code and development of Spring Engine in general from a technical point of view. Patches go here too.

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
SinbadEV
Posts: 6475
Joined: 02 May 2005, 03:56

Re: [IMPORTANT] 95.0 will got a new folder structure

Post by SinbadEV »

For those complaining about the "only writing to user space" thing should note that Windows (since Vista) practically forces this on software... to the extent that it will sometimes create virtual folders in appdata for programs which don't have the necessary permissions to write to their install directory... Google Chrome actually goes as far as installing it's executable to your userspace to get around the hurdles Microsoft has put into place to prevent applications from writing anywhere but in userspace.

Yes, a lot of software continues to be written with a Windows 98 and earlier mentality and does a bad job of it, but it has been clear for a long time that Microsoft has come around to the Unix/Linux and Mac perspective that installed software should be kept separate from user data and each iteration of Windows makes it harder to do it the "wrong" way.
User avatar
Jools
XTA Developer
Posts: 2814
Joined: 23 Feb 2009, 16:29

Re: [IMPORTANT] 95.0 will got a new folder structure

Post by Jools »

SinbadEV wrote:each iteration of Windows makes it harder to do it the "wrong" way.
It's good you put wrong in quotes. Because what is right or wrong depends on user.

For example I have one small SSD drive as Windows 7 boot, another as winxp boot/backup/repair and a third as Kubuntu for testing. Now, what sense would it make to chuck everything three times on all three drives? You know that core spring install is maybe 100 mb and the maps/mods can get quite big. I have 14 Gb of maps. It would be insanity duplicate all those files instead of having a common springdata-directory with maps and mods, and a portable install on all boot drives with the spring engine related files.

I'm sure that when many users get a SSD as boot drive this scenario will not be very uncommon.
User avatar
SinbadEV
Posts: 6475
Joined: 02 May 2005, 03:56

Re: [IMPORTANT] 95.0 will got a new folder structure

Post by SinbadEV »

In your situation I would suggest putting all spring "userspace" data on one drive and then symlinking it from each OS's particular local userspace (mklink was added to windows starting in Vista, it will be harder to do in XP, might need to do it from 7).
User avatar
Jools
XTA Developer
Posts: 2814
Joined: 23 Feb 2009, 16:29

Re: [IMPORTANT] 95.0 will got a new folder structure

Post by Jools »

Yeah except that symlinking increases the startup time of spring (the time it takes from pressing start/join to the loading window to show) from about 5 seconds to about 2 minutes.
User avatar
SinbadEV
Posts: 6475
Joined: 02 May 2005, 03:56

Re: [IMPORTANT] 95.0 will got a new folder structure

Post by SinbadEV »

Jools wrote:Yeah except that symlinking increases the startup time of spring (the time it takes from pressing start/join to the loading window to show) from about 5 seconds to about 2 minutes.
Really? How odd... then maybe the solution is to install spring once per OS and then use springsettings.cfg to point at the central data location.
klapmongool
Posts: 843
Joined: 13 Aug 2007, 13:19

Re: [IMPORTANT] 95.0 will got a new folder structure

Post by klapmongool »

SinbadEV wrote:
Jools wrote:Yeah except that symlinking increases the startup time of spring (the time it takes from pressing start/join to the loading window to show) from about 5 seconds to about 2 minutes.
Really? How odd... then maybe the solution is to install spring once per OS and then use springsettings.cfg to point at the central data location.
Or make Spring portable only.
User avatar
SinbadEV
Posts: 6475
Joined: 02 May 2005, 03:56

Re: [IMPORTANT] 95.0 will got a new folder structure

Post by SinbadEV »

klapmongool wrote:
SinbadEV wrote:
Jools wrote:Yeah except that symlinking increases the startup time of spring (the time it takes from pressing start/join to the loading window to show) from about 5 seconds to about 2 minutes.
Really? How odd... then maybe the solution is to install spring once per OS and then use springsettings.cfg to point at the central data location.
Or make Spring portable only.
Windows Portable spring wouldn't work on Linux anyways, so you'd still need at least two copies of the executable directory. Based on my reading of the post, spring can still be varying degrees of "portable" anyways... in a way, the additional granularity provided by these changes will make it easier to do so.
User avatar
Jools
XTA Developer
Posts: 2814
Joined: 23 Feb 2009, 16:29

Re: [IMPORTANT] 95.0 will got a new folder structure

Post by Jools »

I don't use linux anymore because of grub. Anyway, I didn't want to make this about me, but instead illustrate a case where a standard boot configuration won't work.

Automation is good in some cases but decentralisation is also good. Usually the end-user is the person with best knowledge of his/her specific situation.
User avatar
SinbadEV
Posts: 6475
Joined: 02 May 2005, 03:56

Re: [IMPORTANT] 95.0 will got a new folder structure

Post by SinbadEV »

Jools wrote:Usually the end-user is the person with best knowledge of his/her specific situation.
I have been on the Internet and worked in customer service/technical support too long to believe this to be true. I often know more about a User's needs and situation after a few minutes of discussion then they ever will (or ever would need to).

It's why we ask users to send in infolog.txt when they have problems... the average new spring user isn't going to know any better than my mother what the contents mean and it will be easier for us to figure out what's going on from the logs than by asking the user a barrage of questions.

Standardization makes it so that it's easier for new users to find help... if there's no accepted standard then you have to waste time trying to figure out where the user has decided to put all their stuff before you get around to actually helping them with their problem.
User avatar
Pxtl
Posts: 6112
Joined: 23 Oct 2004, 01:43

Re: [IMPORTANT] 95.0 will got a new folder structure

Post by Pxtl »

Hooray for uncluttered homedir! Hooray for consolidating all the user stuff into *one* userland folder.
User avatar
SpliFF
Posts: 1224
Joined: 28 Jul 2008, 06:51

Re: [IMPORTANT] 95.0 will got a new folder structure

Post by SpliFF »

It's funny that those complaining about linux standardised config paths seem to have no beef with Microsoft's insane "documents and settings" paths. I'd much rather ask a user to find something under /home/user/.config or /home/user/.spring than under "C:\Documents and Settings\username\(hidden)AppData\Local Settings\My Games\PublisherName\GameName" or whatever the fuck it is depending on your Windows version, group policies and application choice. Seriously, they couldn't have used C:/Users/Username/Settings/ProgramName or something similiarly sane right from the start?

And Jools. You are still blaming Grub for your mistakes? Talk about comprehension failure.
User avatar
Jools
XTA Developer
Posts: 2814
Joined: 23 Feb 2009, 16:29

Re: [IMPORTANT] 95.0 will got a new folder structure

Post by Jools »

SpliFF wrote:It's funny that those complaining about linux standardised config paths seem to have no beef with Microsoft's insane "documents and settings" paths.
You have old information. In windows that path is by default C:\Users\<username>\AppData
SpliFF wrote: And Jools. You are still blaming Grub for your mistakes? Talk about comprehension failure.
Yes, I blame grub in spite of your pathetic sales pitch. Deal with it.
User avatar
SinbadEV
Posts: 6475
Joined: 02 May 2005, 03:56

Re: [IMPORTANT] 95.0 will got a new folder structure

Post by SinbadEV »

Jools wrote:
SpliFF wrote:It's funny that those complaining about linux standardised config paths seem to have no beef with Microsoft's insane "documents and settings" paths.
You have old information. In windows that path is by default C:\Users\<username>\AppData
C:\Users\[username]\AppData\Local\[program name] with "AppData" being a hidden folder actually... though I have a few odd-ball programs that have their data in C:\Users\[username]\.[program name]
User avatar
Jools
XTA Developer
Posts: 2814
Joined: 23 Feb 2009, 16:29

Re: [IMPORTANT] 95.0 will got a new folder structure

Post by Jools »

Yes, true. But it's not "Documents and Settings" anymore.

Besides, you can use %mygames%/spring or %appdata%/blablabla...
User avatar
SpliFF
Posts: 1224
Joined: 28 Jul 2008, 06:51

Re: [IMPORTANT] 95.0 will got a new folder structure

Post by SpliFF »

Jools wrote:Yes, true. But it's not "Documents and Settings" anymore.
It's both. In win7 they left the old path around as a symlink that seems to work for some things and not others. Using 'Users' requires knowing which version of windows they have which is actually a challenge for some people.
Jools wrote:Besides, you can use %mygames%/spring or %appdata%/blablabla...
Assuming you know how to show the location bar, because it's hidden by default. That means an extra set of steps when guiding noob users through this.

Even MS seems to have acknowledged they fucked up by 'fixing' the user data paths but they didn't do it soon enough or even very well. By the time /Users becomes a reliable path win9 will be along to change it all again or more likely hide it behind some new UI abomination.

I've been providing tech support for windows clients and writing software for nearly 20 years now and I know how many issues these constant changes cause. Microsoft just keep changing and renaming things without any real reason. They did it with Dial-up Networking, Printers And Devices, 'Add/Remove Programs', Folder Options and now even the Start Menu and a bunch of other shit that was perfectly fine where it was. I believe they do it to try and hide the fact that each "version" of windows is really an incremental patchset and not some brand new product you should run out and buy (as they'd like you to think). Probably also to sell more books and certification courses.

When things are changed in linux (like udev -> systemd) it is never done lightly or without intensive public discussion. Most of the time you even have the option of continuing with the old way (like MATE for people who didn't like Gnome 3).
User avatar
SinbadEV
Posts: 6475
Joined: 02 May 2005, 03:56

Re: [IMPORTANT] 95.0 will got a new folder structure

Post by SinbadEV »

I do, however, like that they finally changed "Tile Windows Vertically"/"Tile Windows Horizontally" to "Show Windows Stacked"/"Show Windows Side by Side". Could never remember which was which before and it drove me nuts.
User avatar
Jools
XTA Developer
Posts: 2814
Joined: 23 Feb 2009, 16:29

Re: [IMPORTANT] 95.0 will got a new folder structure

Post by Jools »

SpliFF wrote: Assuming you know how to show the location bar, because it's hidden by default. That means an extra set of steps when guiding noob users through this.
Location bar of the file explorer? There are many ways of opening %mygames%/Spring:

* Press windows+R, type %mygames%/Spring

* Make a shortcut to spring in favourites menu, press windows+E, and click on spring

* Make a speech recognition macro that opens spring and to run it, just say 'open spring'

So everybody doesn't use the location bar. By the way, speech recognition is a quite big addition to windows after xp. If something changes the way we give commands to the computer, I don't think it's fair to say that that is just a patch. Of course in philisophy, all changes to software can be called patches.
User avatar
jK
Spring Developer
Posts: 2299
Joined: 28 Jun 2007, 07:30

Re: [IMPORTANT] 95.0 will got a new folder structure

Post by jK »

Jools wrote:
SpliFF wrote:* Press windows+R, type %mygames%/Spring
Cause you said that now multiple times:
There is no %mygames% envvar! so what you recommend won't work (except win7/8 do something stupid).

(I used it in my documentation as a placeholder and not as a working envvar.)
User avatar
Jools
XTA Developer
Posts: 2814
Joined: 23 Feb 2009, 16:29

Re: [IMPORTANT] 95.0 will got a new folder structure

Post by Jools »

I have a %mygames% environment variable. Maybe yours is %meinespiele% or something?
User avatar
yuritch
Spring 1944 Developer
Posts: 1018
Joined: 11 Oct 2005, 07:18

Re: [IMPORTANT] 95.0 will got a new folder structure

Post by yuritch »

Just checked on a Win7 Home, and there is no %mygames% var (nor is there anything resembling a localized version of it, and MS does not localize env var names anyway). Maybe some game you installed created it?
Post Reply

Return to “Engine”