Blender Conference

Blender Conference

Discuss the source code and development of Spring Engine in general from a technical point of view. Patches go here too.

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Tim Blokdijk
Posts: 1240
Joined: 29 May 2005, 11:18

Blender Conference

Post by Tim Blokdijk »

At the end of this month I plan to attend the Blender conference and expect/hope to have a conversation with Ton Roosendaal about the way things are organized with the Blender Foundation/Institute.

The idea is that we as the Spring project can learn something from their choices. Are there any questions you people would like me to ask?

I could try to record an interview? Don't know. Would need to ask him. Would also mean I have to talk with him in English.. Ton has a speech deficiency that already makes it slightly harder to understand what he is saying so I might decide to just note down his remarks.
User avatar
MidKnight
Posts: 2650
Joined: 10 Sep 2008, 03:11

Re: Blender Conference

Post by MidKnight »

Ooh, wow! This sounds like a great opportunity!

Getting a video interview would be a great testament to Spring's reputability, etc (remember that whole Wikipedia fiasco?), but we don't want to make i hard on Ton.

...Hmm. I have no idea what to ask, really.

*Waits for somebody more knowledgeable to post*
User avatar
Neddie
Community Lead
Posts: 9406
Joined: 10 Apr 2006, 05:05

Re: Blender Conference

Post by Neddie »

A PR opportunity is there, and it may also be interesting to see if Spring can get involved with any future Blender "Open Projects" but I think we should focus on what we can learn, as Tim seems to intend.

It would be nice to learn both about the opportunities in forming an administrative non-profit for an open source project and the solutions Blender has deployed against major problems they've encountered - particularly with development, community growth, and product adoption. I know people in this community including myself have discussed the possible formation of an NPO in the past, although it is not currently under consideration.

I await the developer response to your query, Tim. I present a primarily community focused view, and their input should be instructive and helpful. Anyway, I wish you luck!
User avatar
MidKnight
Posts: 2650
Joined: 10 Sep 2008, 03:11

Re: Blender Conference

Post by MidKnight »

What about asking about how they got projects like the Peach and Elephant's Dream off the ground, and if that Spring could learn anything from that kind of approach?
User avatar
Tim Blokdijk
Posts: 1240
Joined: 29 May 2005, 11:18

Re: Blender Conference

Post by Tim Blokdijk »

@Neddie, I would like it if the people without C++ coding skills involve themselves in the organisational discussion. It gives a broader perspective, helps the devs keeping a focus on code and allows others to be more involved in the project as a whole.
It's a calm period now so perfect to push this topic a bit further.

Anyway, idea's so far:
ÔùÅ See if a video interview is possible.
ÔùÅ Try to do it in a way that improve Springs notability.
ÔùÅ Learn about Stichting Blender Foundation / Blender Institute b.v.
ÔùÅ How to do "Open Projects" (with Blender?).

Other idea's?
User avatar
hoijui
Former Engine Dev
Posts: 4344
Joined: 22 Sep 2007, 09:51

Re: Blender Conference

Post by hoijui »

maybe ask for his view of new blender stuff coming up that could be interesting for an (RTS) game dev community? like new model formats, with support for storing X, or what he thinks about assimp, or maybe what new GFX techniques will be easier accessible to game/model designers, which he things modern engines should support, ...
i don't know anything that would really make sense :D
User avatar
MidKnight
Posts: 2650
Joined: 10 Sep 2008, 03:11

Re: Blender Conference

Post by MidKnight »

Since the blender folks have a wealth of experience regarding the different model formats, we could ask them for advice on fixing our terrible workflow (and cutting UpSpring out of it!), along with the new assimp stuff.
User avatar
Tim Blokdijk
Posts: 1240
Joined: 29 May 2005, 11:18

Re: Blender Conference

Post by Tim Blokdijk »

Actually, that's a good idea, Blender has an option somewhere to embed an external engine inside its gui. Allowing you to edit inside Blender and see in real time the 'in game' result. Theoretically,.. anyway.
It was developed in the Peach open project but I never seen it used anywhere. I should ask about that feature.

As for improving workflow, Blender has very deep Python scripting support, the Bio research community scripted the hell out of blender and maintain BioBlender. The OpenShot project scripts blender to create video effects.
These projects really managed to improve workflow and get unmatched results. It's possible to "merge" UpSpring into Blender as a plug-in.. Glest did this for their model format.
But.. an export plug-in won't give us the power of Blender, only the complexity. It's like trying to strap a space rocket to the Spring train - "maybe" we can get somewhere real fast.
User avatar
hoijui
Former Engine Dev
Posts: 4344
Joined: 22 Sep 2007, 09:51

Re: Blender Conference

Post by hoijui »

getting rid of UpSpring but relying on Blender (and some custom made scripts therein) instead, is a bad way to go, i would say. if it just adds value to blender users, as in, a more speedy development process, and takes nothing from users of other software, it is a good thing.
User avatar
AF
AI Developer
Posts: 20678
Joined: 14 Sep 2004, 11:32

Re: Blender Conference

Post by AF »

I'd rather grumble about a maintained project than a dead project

( and it doesn't hurt to ask )
User avatar
smoth
Posts: 22306
Joined: 13 Jan 2005, 00:46

Re: Blender Conference

Post by smoth »

hoijui wrote:getting rid of UpSpring but relying on Blender (and some custom made scripts therein) instead, is a bad way to go.
Agreed very bad.
AF wrote:I'd rather grumble about a maintained project than a dead project
yet you are not using it/don't have to use it. I have always found blender terribly cumbersome and frankly will fight any effort to remove upspring and supplant it with a tool like blender.
AF wrote:( and it doesn't hurt to ask )
This, at the very least, some of the blender modelers might go, hey, what is this spring thing.. oh look, that is pretty cool, they have games, I can make a game etc..
User avatar
AF
AI Developer
Posts: 20678
Joined: 14 Sep 2004, 11:32

Re: Blender Conference

Post by AF »

smoth wrote:
AF wrote:I'd rather grumble about a maintained project than a dead project
yet you are not using it/don't have to use it. I have always found blender terribly cumbersome and frankly will fight any effort to remove upspring and supplant it with a tool like blender.
Somehow you managed to read between the lines that were inbetween the lines of my generic non-Blender specific statement, uncover my evil plan to utterly annihilate upspring and replace it with blender, and even threw in a condescending patronising attack based on something you cannot possibly know .

Congratulations! I hereby concede defeat to your inexhonerable wisdom and insight and cancel my evil scaremongering project for the 'benefit' of the community.

( you do remember I've built units before, and I've experimented away from XTA in the past, and I've tried Blender too and came to the same conclusion as you, not that any of this is relevant or justification )

Disclaimer: I have no intention of following up this post. It is a one time discardable post, not a debate or discussion. If there is a real need to reply, please use Private messages. Posts replying directly to this one will be flagged for moderation ( I cannot think of a single post that could be made in reply to this of use to this thread . Please endeavour to make the requirement of paragraphs such as this unneeded in future.
User avatar
knorke
Posts: 7971
Joined: 22 Feb 2006, 01:02

Re: Blender Conference

Post by knorke »

Before doing the interview maybe prepare by having a look/ask around what spring games currently use models made with blender. When the blender guys see that there is interesst to use their software it might be more relevant to them?
It's possible to "merge" UpSpring into Blender as a plug-in.. Glest did this for their model format.
There are some models converted from glest to spring floating around. Not sure how complicated that was... but doesn't it mean spring modelers could use the same tools as glest?
User avatar
Tim Blokdijk
Posts: 1240
Joined: 29 May 2005, 11:18

Re: Blender Conference

Post by Tim Blokdijk »

knorke wrote:There are some models converted from glest to spring floating around. Not sure how complicated that was... but doesn't it mean spring modelers could use the same tools as glest?
It's not so much "tools", they wrote an exporter in Blender, it records the position of each vertex per animation frame. Nothing more.
But.. as simple as it is, it instantly allows an artist to use all the shiny animation features Blender has to offer.
Spring uses a programming language to animate the units.
User avatar
smoth
Posts: 22306
Joined: 13 Jan 2005, 00:46

Re: Blender Conference

Post by smoth »

the shiny animation features are not as easy to use as the programing version of the animation.

It has been a few years but last I tried blender and I mean really tried, as in did model, skinning and fiddled with animation it was a horrible experience.
User avatar
MidKnight
Posts: 2650
Joined: 10 Sep 2008, 03:11

Re: Blender Conference

Post by MidKnight »

I am one of those "Blender guys," and I think that, while a working exporter for any modeling app would be good, an tool for Blender would be an especially neat solution. Blender's got the biggest featureset of any free modeling suite, and is kept pretty nice and modern.


Smoth: Blender's UI was given a complete rework sometime in 2010. If you haven't tried it since, I strongly reccomend you do. The new UI should be pretty intuitive for anybody who understands modern rendering workflows (materials, sculpting, proportional editing, modifiers, etc).
You don't have to use them, just know where they are, so they don't get clicked on by accident.

The old UI was a bit of a monster, but the new one's a lot nicer! I find it a lot easier to use than ZBrush or 3DS Max (although that may have improved if I had had more than 30daus to try each :P).
User avatar
AF
AI Developer
Posts: 20678
Joined: 14 Sep 2004, 11:32

Re: Blender Conference

Post by AF »

Lets remind ourselves the point of this thread was questions to ask blender devs, not whether blender is the almighty modelling tool or not.
User avatar
MidKnight
Posts: 2650
Joined: 10 Sep 2008, 03:11

Re: Blender Conference

Post by MidKnight »

AF wrote:Lets remind ourselves the point of this thread was questions to ask blender devs, not whether blender is the almighty modelling tool or not.
: X Dangit, I got carried away.
We could ask them about how they keep their code manageable and readable, and how we can avoid "magical" code nobody can update for fear of breaking things (like the pathfinder)
User avatar
Tim Blokdijk
Posts: 1240
Joined: 29 May 2005, 11:18

Re: Blender Conference

Post by Tim Blokdijk »

Small update, it's not going to be an video interview. I can have a chat 10-15 min. but his time is constrained on the conference.
My plan now is to speak with him and record audio, write that out in English and put that text online.
User avatar
MidKnight
Posts: 2650
Joined: 10 Sep 2008, 03:11

Re: Blender Conference

Post by MidKnight »

Sweet!

Thanks for doing this, Tim! I can't wait to see the results!
Post Reply

Return to “Engine”