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Is this for real!?

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raneti
Posts: 148
Joined: 21 Sep 2006, 00:12

Post by raneti »

true, and remember, ITS ALL YOUR FAULT :)

you attend the military
you pay the taxes
you vote for them

500 people doing nothing in my country parliament consume so much money a day that it would suffice to buy 1 meal to every person on the globe(i did the math) or hire 10 thousand medium wage people
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FizWizz
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Post by FizWizz »

Deathblane wrote:*Deathblane gets hit by Rhetoric for 100000 damage
*Deathblane gets hit by Ignorance for 1000000000 damage
*Deathblane looses the will to live
*FizWizz Sympathizes with Deathblane
*Deathblane gains 1000 hitpoints
*Deathblane still has no will to live
:P
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Felix the Cat
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Post by Felix the Cat »

One hundred years ago every able bodied man between the ages of 17-45 was our army. And we didn't get involved in wars on the other side of the world. Seventy years ago we were still self reliant and didn't need any country, but FDR took the devil's deal. So what am I saying? I'm just saying there is no solution any more, except a painful failure of our government and a fall into despotism.
False!

The Spanish-American War, 1899, saw US troops in Cuba, Puerto Rico, and in the Philippines.

The Philippine-American War, whch bears some eerie resemblances to the Iraq War, was a war between US troops and Philippine rebels. It lasted from 1899 to 1913.
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Zoombie
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Post by Zoombie »

Both roads of being the worlds police men and a walled of xenophobia state are horrible. Being police men takes monet, effort, time, energy, and no matter how hard you try EVERYONE is going to hate you. Being a xenophobic walled of place is worse, because the world is getting more connected every day and anyone who dosn't see that (or thinks its a bad idea) is well, a moron.
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Lindir The Green
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Post by Lindir The Green »

raneti wrote:true, and remember, ITS ALL YOUR FAULT :)

you attend the military
you pay the taxes
you vote for them
I'm not old enough to attend the military or vote.

But even if I were old enough, I still wouldn't join the military, and I would have voted for the other guy. Gore and Kerry. I didn't like Kerry, but he would have IMO been better than Bush.

I guess I have been paying the taxes though... I've spent maybe a total of $200 - $500 of my own money since I was born... But there's nothing I can do about that except not buy anything.

And I actually don't mind that much the US invading regimes for oil... It was a regime, and while the Iraqis might be worse off now, they were bad off then. Except for now there's some hope for a brighter future for them, instead of more and more Saddam.
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Risasi
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Joined: 04 Oct 2006, 19:50

Post by Risasi »

Felix the Cat wrote:
One hundred years ago every able bodied man between the ages of 17-45 was our army. And we didn't get involved in wars on the other side of the world. Seventy years ago we were still self reliant and didn't need any country, but FDR took the devil's deal. So what am I saying? I'm just saying there is no solution any more, except a painful failure of our government and a fall into despotism.
False!

The Spanish-American War, 1899, saw US troops in Cuba, Puerto Rico, and in the Philippines.

The Philippine-American War, whch bears some eerie resemblances to the Iraq War, was a war between US troops and Philippine rebels. It lasted from 1899 to 1913.

Gaahh!!! I've been busted. :-) Okay I forgot about the Philippines. How could I let that slip? After all because of that war Browning made my favorite pistol.

I'll agree with you on this one. We did pick a fight. Of course we did "purchase" the Philippines from who was it ? The Portuguese? So depending on what side of the fence you are sitting on you could say we were "protecting" our investment, and trying to bring a little order to the place. And yes it is strangely like the Iraq deal because we're halfway around the world, pouring resources into a fight against a bunch of muslims again.



Also I did forget, I believe we kind of picked a fight with the Japanese in the 1850's? Never any bloodshed, but I do seem to remember we floated a warship into Tokyo harbor and demanded to have a trade agreement with them. Hmm, perhaps they were simply holding a grudge for 70 years and that's why they bombed Pearl Harbor? ...Na, they overflowed their borders.

As for the Spanish-American war; that was a whole bunch of trouble brewing at our border. Thugs and gangsters taking over after Spain cut their losses and ran. But, yeah. You do have a point. We have been more warmongering than I indicated.

Wars and fighting always occur because one entity lusts after what a second entity has. It's that simple.
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raneti
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Joined: 21 Sep 2006, 00:12

Post by raneti »

yeah the iraqi are better off now after 20,000+ civilians are dead :twisted:
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Forboding Angel
Evolution RTS Developer
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Post by Forboding Angel »

raneti wrote:yeah the iraqi are better off now after 20,000+ civilians are dead :twisted:
Don't forget the part about losing the maniacial, genecidal (<< is that even a word?), dictator.

Ya, things have never been worse for iraq :roll:
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raneti
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Joined: 21 Sep 2006, 00:12

Post by raneti »

i am sure the dead care :roll:
the rest just don't have to go to work... at all :twisted: trust me i know more than any1 here about transition, people only undertand some things better only when they face starvation; personally i rather have a dictator and a full belly
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Risasi
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Post by Risasi »

When it comes to this current war, I don't know what to believe.

Frankly I quit paying attention. I don't read the news any longer. Too much disinformation. As for our current status. Yeah we are smack in the middle of it. And now that we are there I do not believe we can simply pull out. That would be the stupidest thing we can do. The Persians are funding the other side of this thing and they won't stop pushing. If we back up now they will overflow into Europe, and likely start bombing the crap out of the US.

Was this war orchestrated? Yes, I believe so.
But I believe it was coming no matter what. I believe those currently in power decided we could get a black eye and come out ahead by going in now. Or wait ten years and have a very serious fight on our hands.

I fully expect Iran to start pushing our buttons in the next year or so. Perhaps the powers that be knew this before we went into Iraq, and decided a good offense was the best defense in this case. I don't know, just thinking out loud.

Also down the road China will no longer be content. They will try knocking heads in the next five years or so. If we pull out now we're in real trouble.
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Risasi
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Post by Risasi »

raneti wrote:i am sure the dead care :roll:
the rest just don't have to go to work... at all :twisted: trust me i know more than any1 here about transition, people only undertand some things better only when they face starvation; personally i rather have a dictator and a full belly
One dead is a tragedy, a million dead is a statistic...
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raneti
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Joined: 21 Sep 2006, 00:12

Post by raneti »

I fully expect Iran to start pushing our buttons in the next year or so.
The CIA pushes all the buttons, it did so in the past(ie Vietnam, Bosnia, Afghanistan and more, countless intrusions) and it will again. The New World Order is a fairy tale supplied to the average Joe, the thruth is that as workers got a sindicate the politicians got one too, and it tends now to be a global one(you can call that the new world order, i call it greed inc. :); politicians rather rule the military not be ruled by them, thus keeping the largest military power supplied and occupied by waging war and control everybody is "happy", or better said everything is under the control and the politicians are happy and get to keep their jobs.
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Felix the Cat
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Post by Felix the Cat »

I'll agree with you on this one. We did pick a fight. Of course we did "purchase" the Philippines from who was it ? The Portuguese?
Actually, we took it from Spain in the aforementioned Spanish-American War.
Also down the road China will no longer be content. They will try knocking heads in the next five years or so. If we pull out now we're in real trouble.
And what, pray tell, does China have to gain from "knocking heads"? Don't listen to the image projected by the Western media of China as a militaristic power antagonistic to the US. The situation is not at all like, say, the Cold War. China and the US have a lot more to gain from cooperation than from confrontation, and both parties know it.
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Risasi
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Joined: 04 Oct 2006, 19:50

Post by Risasi »

Felix the Cat wrote:
I'll agree with you on this one. We did pick a fight. Of course we did "purchase" the Philippines from who was it ? The Portuguese?
Actually, we took it from Spain in the aforementioned Spanish-American War.
Also down the road China will no longer be content. They will try knocking heads in the next five years or so. If we pull out now we're in real trouble.
And what, pray tell, does China have to gain from "knocking heads"? Don't listen to the image projected by the Western media of China as a militaristic power antagonistic to the US. The situation is not at all like, say, the Cold War. China and the US have a lot more to gain from cooperation than from confrontation, and both parties know it.
Actually I must confess, I don't watch any news any longer, of any kind. I don't trust it. Like I said too much disinformation. So I am not basing my view of China off of whatever "they" are saying. Frankly I don't know what the current news about China is. I'm basing what I have said from information, given to me by friends in the military, or retired. They have been telling me to watch China for six years now.
I did get some recent information from an aquaintance, a recently retired full bird colonel. He was stationed in Iraq until a year ago. He made it real clear China would not survive a head to head battle with us right now, just because our airforce would wipe the floor with them.

Anyway; I've seen their navy, which is about the only thing worrisome to the US. They have last estimate about 80 subs. Twenty + which carry ballistic cruise missles.

Their airforce sucks, but their ground forces are ridiculous. Though their population is aging, they can still by my last estimate, in '04, raise an army about 8-10 million. So we can see they are preparing for a land war in asia. And we should know Rule No. 2 by now. Obviously I'm not concerned about being overrun on our own soil. Just think of the logistics of moving an army of even a few million halfway around the world. Ain't gonna happen, we own the skies.

Anyway, when I say "knocking heads" I don't mean a direct confrontation between the US and China. More likely a proxy war, or perhaps there is an outside chance it will be an orchestrated "police action" over Taiwan or some similar country. And their plan of attack will be to tear down our economy, not an outright battle.

China reminds me of an 1800's Texas cattle baron; he didn't want the whole state, just the land around him. :-) Same thing with China, they want to bring the outlying island under their control. They want to flex their muscle in front of Japan, Russia, the Koreas. India and Pakistan too. One of our Indian web developers has been telling me China has been backing Pakistan and pushing for a fight between India and Pakistan for years now.

Regardless I agree, it makes far more sense for both parties to cooperate. And they will to a certain extent. But they are coming into their own and don't want to be thought of as the backward third world country that bums around with his older brother and his bully pals. They also want the fear and respect like the US and Russia has had in the past. They want into the Rat Pack club.
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Felix the Cat
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Post by Felix the Cat »

You didn't answer my question.

What international interests does China have that require direct or indirect military confrontation with the United States?

China and the US will not get into a cold war like the Soviet Union and the US did, simply because China is not attempting to export Communism abroad. Heck, China's government is basically Communist in name only. The US is dependent upon China for imports of consumer goods and electronics; China is dependent upon the US for a large and dependable market for said goods, not to mention that it imports a lot of our food, high-tech goods, heavy machinery, machine tools, and the like.

Both China and the US have an interest in protecting our oil supplies; both have an interest in a stable price and production of crude oil.

Yes, there are some points of contention, Taiwan being a primary one. However, so long as nobody makes a concerted effort to provoke a crisis, one won't occur. It's much more likely that, as China liberalizes, Taiwan will drift back into the fold, and while it may not be annexed outright it may join into a customs union and common market with China, or something of that nature.

When I say that the Western media portrays a misleading image of China as a militaristic power, I'm not talking about exclusively the news, but all of the media and entertainment that our culture produces. Ever read Tom Clancy's The Bear and the Dragon? China invades Russia in that one, and ends up getting beat by the US military. How about Invasion by some author whose name I've forgotten? China invades the US. I'm sure you've probably played Command and Conquer: Generals at some point, in which one of the three sides is China.

I don't think that this is a concerted propaganda effort or anything of that sort; it's because China fits what the media needs in these cases the best: a militaristic power to be another military superpower to oppose the US. It's fine for entertainment, but when it leaks over into the popular conception of China, it becomes harmful and misleading.
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Risasi
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Post by Risasi »

Hi Felix,

Sorry I was out of town all last weekend. I'm just now catching my breath since getting back to work.
"What international interests does China have that require direct or indirect military confrontation with the United States?"
Well, I don't see it as merely militaristic activity, but yeah, I think it's headed there...anyway, for one the modernization of their society and and all the economic structures that go with it means they are needing the same resources we do. So the short answer, oil is big on the list. Nuclear plants too, and the stigma that goes with it. A third world country can't mention nuclear anything with our beaurocracy getting all uptight. Basically their own population has started to crave all the amenities we have here. And they have a much larger population, which I believe are harder working than us Americans. (Perhaps not by choice though :-) )

Another short answer to your question is because America has become a behemoth of weaklings. And traitors. Look at the past 15 years. Between Clinton and Bush in office every advantage we've had has been sold.
Like that spy plane incident. What ever happened with that? I believe traitors within our own country orchestrated that one. And what with all the lobbyists in Los Angeles Caidos (D.C.) being very Chinese friendly this has allowed for quite a bit of military and corporate espionage in the past decade.


As for them driving up oil market prices, that's just supply and demand. And manipulation by corporate and government agencies here, I find it very interesting that oil is pulled out of the ground in the middle east for about $4.50 a barrel. Between tax and price gouging it's obvious somebody is making a penny, and it's not in their best interests to stop either..
Of course I think we are being a bit stupid about this when we have plenty of oil up north, and we can also import more from South America. It may not be much, but it would alleviate some of the burden. Don't get me wrong, I am neither a tree hugging type, nor am I all in favor of the ridiculous waste of entertainment minded americans either.

As for those books you mentioned. Nope haven't read any of them. Heck, I haven't even turned on the radio in my car this week. So I guess you could argue I am a purposefully ignorant. :-)

Personally I believe people should spread out and populate the planet, rather than band together into these huge cities. Our american society has become a wasteful one. In everything we do; our travels, our time, our families. And I believe we are waning, just like the Roman empire did 1800 years ago. The parallels between our societies is downright disturbing.
I also don't believe we can do anything about it. The impetus of the situation has taken over. It is inevitable, like the seasons.

Obviously we don't agree on certain things, and probably won't. I'm sure we could go round and round on this. And I have many, many thoughts which are not easily put in a message forum. There are just too many facets to all of this.
So I didn't say all of this to start an argument. I just believed you deserved an answer.
Like I said I doubt we'll come to any resolution on this subject, but I am fine with continuing to talk about it. Though perhaps we are boring people here, in which case I suggest we take this to PM.
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KDR_11k
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Post by KDR_11k »

What if China decides they want some cheap oil too and crushes, say, Saudi Arabia? That would be an economic goal.
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Neddie
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Post by Neddie »

I think everybody here might benefit from analysis of the situation from a sociological standpoint, but I understand that it will be difficult to accept the conclusions unless you look at it for yourself, so I don't intend to weigh in on this discussion yet.
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Risasi
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Post by Risasi »

neddiedrow wrote:I think everybody here might benefit from analysis of the situation from a sociological standpoint, but I understand that it will be difficult to accept the conclusions unless you look at it for yourself, so I don't intend to weigh in on this discussion yet.
:lol:

You're probably the smartest one here, best not to say anything. The few Chinese co-workers I have had over the years don't exactly ooze "sneaky militant communist lackey". Of course I understand it isn't any one person, it's their government. Who questions returning Chinese nationals upon their return, thus gaining many small pictures of the "elephant".

Obviously I don't REALLY know anything, I'm merely basing my viewpoint on the testimony of other people within the US government. And we all know that can be a mistake...I guess time will tell.

:TPFIC: In the meantime I'll continue to stock up food, bullets and cigarettes (gotta have something to trade with :-) ), and prepare for the imminent communist red/yellow horde :roll:
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