Total Annihilation 2 is alive

[100Gbps]

Guys what is Heroes of the Storm? A custom map? A mod? -_-

When you'll find the anwser, you can return to Earth with more knowledge about life (I'm not kidding)

Come on. guys, let's be honest - Spring has a chance only if it changes from engine to platform for PLAYABLE and FUN mods (like Spring Tanks), not a small number of pure RTS ones

[smoth]

Come on. guys, let's be honest - Spring has a chance only if it changes from engine to platform for PLAYABLE and FUN mods (like Spring Tanks), not a small number of pure RTS ones

Spring has KP, it has had KP for years. Spring is an engine... you know I am not sure if you are trolling or ignorant.

[scifi]

It almost makes me sad looking at those engines and 3d software being sold on Steam for 200+ bucks, and people buy them.

The irony is real specially when theres a lot of fremium options available.

[PauloMorfeo]

... engines and 3d software being sold on Steam for 200+ bucks, and people buy them...

Non-intentional FUD over free (gratis) options - will they be functionally ok, will they be supported etc. etc. etc.?

And to some degree, regarding Spring, that is partially true: http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17847 . Very few commercial game producers would be willing to go fully open with their source or, maybe even worst, go partially open and risk entering contested legality of its product.

[raaar]

so, is TA2 alive?

[gajop]

so, is TA2 alive?

Hey, what's up with suddenly going back to the topic?

[PicassoCT]

Just cause you derail the derail into re-rail doesent mean its right. We were having a conversation here!

[smoth]

It almost makes me sad looking at those engines and 3d software being sold on Steam for 200+ bucks, and people buy them.

The irony is real specially when theres a lot of fremium options available.

Spring games can go on steam.

[dimm]

So dld 15GB to try sc arcade aaaaand its not that great. Maybe i just need to research a little to understand what all the numbers mean. Anyway game lags to a grind with only half the units in game. Mostly i wish SC had a "no graphics card to dl for option'.

[luckywaldo7]

Come on. guys, let's be honest - Spring has a chance only if it changes from engine to platform for PLAYABLE and FUN mods (like Spring Tanks), not a small number of pure RTS ones

I would like to hear your reasoning. Mini-mods are a fun novelty, but they don't have staying power.

Look at all of KDR_11k's mini-mods. Many of them were quite popular immediately after release, but died out afterwards.

You mention Spring Tanks, which you say is "playable and fun", but I don't see it played, I don't know if I could find someone to play it with me, and I couldn't even tell you if it is even compatible with the latest version of spring.

[knorke]

I don't see it played, I don't know if I could find someone to play it with me, and I couldn't even tell you if it is even compatible with the latest version of spring.

That describes every spring mod in existence, including the ones on steam, except BA.

[raaar]

don't think mini games are the answer either. The engine is built with TA-style RTS games in mind.

There are LOTS of other hubs for mini-games and lots and lots and lots of mini-games.

spring needs:

1- improved RTS games. The current ones fail on (one or more of) unit variety, animations, visual effects, user interface, gameplay.

(they have been improving over the years, slowly)



2- clearer information on lobbies, how to host games, start games, set up hosts, team positions, etc.

(we have several lobbies, automatic content downloads and recently compatibility with multiple engine versions, which is great, but hosting, setting game parameters and starting games is still a bit confusing)



3- more clarity about money, infrastructure and responsibility issues.

Any example of people that put time and effort into projects with spring engine and made something that provides enough income to replace a full time job? Can commercially viable games really be made using spring engine?

Even for donation based games, if they use content/code from many people, and they get donations. Who should the money go to?

About the shared infrastructure. What services are there? Rapid? this forum? Springfiles? how many servers? Who are the ones maintaining it? Should we pay them more? Is it only one or two persons? What's their current status (are they tired of it)? What happens if they get hit by a bus?


We should improve (1) and (2) before trying to advertise to get more people into spring games. That requires development. And to really get people more serious into the development part maybe we need to do something about (3).

[luckywaldo7]

I don't see it played, I don't know if I could find someone to play it with me, and I couldn't even tell you if it is even compatible with the latest version of spring.

That describes every spring mod in existence, including the ones on steam, except BA.

Zero-K is compatible with the lastest engine, the 'official' autohosts default to 91 because apparently its performance is much better for lots of people.

Evo and S44 I've played many games of before, and I am confident I could get somebody in #evolution or #S44 to play with.

[knorke]

Zero-K is compatible with the lastest engine, the 'official' autohosts default to 91 because apparently its performance is much better for lots of people.

Originally you said about other mod:
"couldn't even tell you if it is even compatible with the latest version of spring."

Imo it is the same with zero-K: As of right now, in lobby there is no zK host with current stable engine. All hosts are 91.0, one is 96.0 and "BETA TEST" room is using a 98.01.xzy test version.
Perhaps you, as a zK dev, have insider information but a normal player does not and thus "couldn't even tell you if it is even compatible with the latest version of spring"either.

bla.png

(39.05 KiB) Not downloaded yet

Evo and S44 I've played many games of before, and I am confident I could get somebody in #evolution or #S44 to play with.

Yes, probally. Just like you could message the creator(s) of any mod and he will likely play his game with you.
Does that really "count"?
(Looking at the replays site or at the players in battleroom: Mostly it is devs & friends or other similiar group playing.)

[hokomoko]

S44 has pretty regular games (not seen on the replays site I think).
And it's true we're all friends of the devs, but that's because they're very friendly. Also most of them actually play the game and not just spec all the time (*cough* FLOZi *cough*)

P.S. similar group playing=player base

[luckywaldo7]

Originally you said about other mod:
"couldn't even tell you if it is even compatible with the latest version of spring."

Imo it is the same with zero-K: As of right now, in lobby there is no zK host with current stable engine. All hosts are 91.0, one is 96.0 and "BETA TEST" room is using a 98.01.xzy test version.
Perhaps you, as a zK dev, have insider information but a normal player does not and thus "couldn't even tell you if it is even compatible with the latest version of spring"either.

You're being intentionally stupid.

If you can see the game being hosted on 91.0, 96.0, and 98.01.xzy, it doesn't require "insider" info to figure out that the game is actively maintained to keep up with engine changes.

[luckywaldo7]

For Spring Tanks though:

* Not included in the games page
* Subforum shows no new posts in over a year
* Wiki page shows "Outdated!" warning
* Latest version is confirmed to work with Spring 94.1
* No commits in over a year

Which is why I think this:

Come on. guys, let's be honest - Spring has a chance only if it changes from engine to platform for PLAYABLE and FUN mods (like Spring Tanks), not a small number of pure RTS ones

is silly.

What is important is sustainable projects, that will keep themselves updated and maintained, and advertise and build communities. Not that I don't love the fun mini-mods too, but they aren't going to suddenly boost Spring into popularity.

[knorke]

hokomoko:
I just find it difficult to consider a handful of people, most involved in making the game, as a playerbase.
Technically they are playing and I have no problem with such community-system, for example XTA is also similiar to that. But it is just strange thing to bring up: would mod-A with 5 devs have more players than mod-B with 3 devs?
To me feels like a band where the musicians themselves and their parents are the only ones who listen to their recordings.

If you can see the game being hosted on 91.0, 96.0, and 98.01.xzy, it doesn't require "insider" info to figure out that the game is actively maintained to keep up with engine changes.

I think that is not the impression that such sight gives.
If I see a game being hosted on engine 91.0, 96.0, and 98.01.xzy then it rather makes me confused which version to use.
There is not even a zK host with stable 98.0, so to normal player the game appears simply not compatible with latest engine. If you have to guess about compatibility then it is not compatible.


Notice "Spring Tanks" was brought up by someone else.
Since you too did mention it now:
ST experiment was over, so I removed it from Games page and marked it "Outdated."
Why moderation has not removed subforum despite me having asked, I do not know?

* Latest version is confirmed to work with Spring 94.1
* No commits in over a year

Do you think zero-k will ever catch up?

What is important is sustainable projects, that will keep themselves updated and maintained, and advertise and build communities.

sounds like BA!

Not that I don't love the fun mini-mods too, but they aren't going to suddenly boost Spring into popularity.

I agree. (but maybe for different reasons)
What is your opinion on the boosting that spring mods on steam greenlight are currently doing?

Mini-mods are a fun novelty, but they don't have staying power.
Look at all of KDR_11k's mini-mods. Many of them were quite popular immediately after release, but died out afterwards.

That is long ago.
Tales from a time when a new engine version meant that the mod had to be updated, or it became broken and unplayable.
Updating a mini-mod or a fullsize-game requires similiar amount of work, but of course the mini-mod is far less rewarding.
Today that is different, mods can stay with older engine version if they want to.

Which is why I think this:

wrote:
Come on. guys, let's be honest - Spring has a chance only if it changes from engine to platform for PLAYABLE and FUN mods (like Spring Tanks), not a small number of pure RTS ones

is silly.

Yes. It is silly to take ST or mini mods as example.
But idea of spring as platform was right. Or can you tell me why each spring game needs a seperate installer and its own lobby?
With one click in filter each lobby can play every game anyway, so why does each mod needs to re-invent its own installer and lobby?
The only differences are a few extra-hacks (like mod wants its own matchmaking system or its own map-selection) but that is not really a good reason.
It is merely something that happend to be like that.

[luckywaldo7]

Or can you tell me why each spring game needs a seperate installer and its own lobby?

Because advertising a game as

"Zero-K: A futuristic RTS with unique balance and unit variety"

and

"BAR: A true fan-made successor to the original Total Annihilation"

is waaaay sexier than advertising as

"Spring: A 12-pack of differently-themed mostly-RTS games"

or

"Spring: A collection with lots of tech-demo abandonware made with an RTS engine"

With one click in filter each lobby can play every game anyway, so why does each mod needs to re-invent its own installer and lobby?

Because you don't need to reinvent everything. Everything Almost everything is open source and openly licensed. You can grab something that already exists and reskin/rebrand it.

[hokomoko]

But idea of spring as platform was right. Or can you tell me why each spring game needs a seperate installer and its own lobby?
With one click in filter each lobby can play every game anyway, so why does each mod needs to re-invent its own installer and lobby?
The only differences are a few extra-hacks (like mod wants its own matchmaking system or its own map-selection) but that is not really a good reason.
It is merely something that happend to be like that.

I think you somewhat miss the point of the lobby/installer for each mod.
When a random person who stumbles upon a spring game wants to play it, they're not presented with the nice and pretty menu they're familiar with from other games. If they happen to accidentally start spring.exe (many are windows users), they get something which doesn't even resemble the screenshots of the game they thought they downloaded.
If on the other hand they started springlobby, it's a bit closer to playing, but still not a menu, and definitely not the aforementioned screenshots.

If the installer is a generic spring installer, they don't even have the game yet...
It's also worth mentioning that the average user doesn't expect a lobby at all, they expect a game (that's what this steam thingy's supposed to do y'know, installing games).

So, in order to give that user the illusion whatever they downloaded is "the game", you need an all-included installer, that has the game's icon, and installs a lobby with a title that contains the game's title. If the lobby is designed to look similar to the ingame UI, you get a special bonus.

But we can be slightly optimistic, Chililobby is the future (gajop will receive a generous kiss on the forehead from me when it's finished).