AMD "Mantle" - Page 2

AMD "Mantle"

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Funkencool
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Re: AMD "Mantle"

Post by Funkencool » 28 Sep 2013, 23:52

Wouldn't this just allow software to use mantle for increased efficiency when applicable, yet still allow using OpenGL etc.. ? So developers have more potential added for performance and none taken away?
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luckywaldo7
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Re: AMD "Mantle"

Post by luckywaldo7 » 29 Sep 2013, 00:48

varikonniemi wrote:jK: Mantle works on all GCN hardware. It is next gen as in no support for older cards.
Image

Mantle is the api one now can use to code for the low level GCN (or xbox one), bypassing direct x/open gl. "Mantle driver" is what nvidia needs to provide to support the open mantle api (programs that run on mantle).

Tell me why im wrong?
'All Graphic Core Next GPUs' means a specific architecture of amd cards branded 'Graphics Core Next', and not generically next-generation GPUs.

http://www.amd.com/us/products/technolo ... cture.aspx
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very_bad_soldier
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Re: AMD "Mantle"

Post by very_bad_soldier » 29 Sep 2013, 09:48

jK wrote: As already said it is a low level `api`, it is designed to map commands 1:1 on hardware commands similar to assembler. So instead of giving you functions like `upload texture`, `draw here`, ... it has commands like `copy data into register A`, `copy data from AGP ram to video ram`, `write color C to memory location X`.
Obviously different hardware designs use _different commands_ and so Mantle cannot be compatible by logic!
The same logic applies to x86 instruction set assembly for CPUs, no? They are compatible between different generations and even between Intel and AMD.
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AF
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Re: AMD "Mantle"

Post by AF » 29 Sep 2013, 23:56

very_bad_soldier wrote:
jK wrote: As already said it is a low level `api`, it is designed to map commands 1:1 on hardware commands similar to assembler. So instead of giving you functions like `upload texture`, `draw here`, ... it has commands like `copy data into register A`, `copy data from AGP ram to video ram`, `write color C to memory location X`.
Obviously different hardware designs use _different commands_ and so Mantle cannot be compatible by logic!
The same logic applies to x86 instruction set assembly for CPUs, no? They are compatible between different generations and even between Intel and AMD.
We don't develop for a mythical Openx86 API though do we?

EA isn't going to build using Mantle alone, in the same way an engine can have OGL and DirectX renderers. Unless AMD is paying them a wad of cash to do this I doubt Mantle will be anything more than a toggle under settings that will probably make things buggy.

Good idea or not, it's a shame the ATI people were the ones to come up with it
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jK
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Re: AMD "Mantle"

Post by jK » 30 Sep 2013, 00:29

very_bad_soldier wrote:
jK wrote: As already said it is a low level `api`, it is designed to map commands 1:1 on hardware commands similar to assembler. So instead of giving you functions like `upload texture`, `draw here`, ... it has commands like `copy data into register A`, `copy data from AGP ram to video ram`, `write color C to memory location X`.
Obviously different hardware designs use _different commands_ and so Mantle cannot be compatible by logic!
The same logic applies to x86 instruction set assembly for CPUs, no? They are compatible between different generations and even between Intel and AMD.
CPUs are totally different to GPUs in many ways. I.e. x86 got more and more commands and they always were compatible will _all_ previous generations, so you can still run DOS, OS/2,Win3.1,... on a modern 4GHz hexacore CPU. This is only possible cause x86 was designed like that from the start, it always was the idea to use many commands, and if the vendor wants to save the silicon for an rarely used command, they use so called microcodes, e.g. this ways AMD likely implements a lot SSE commands, they aren't really supported by the hardware but they are _mapped to FPU cmds_. A damn lot commands are implemented this way.
But not all CPUs are constructed this way, so many vendors/engineers hated this design (a lot cmds + microcodes), cause it needs a lot silicon & adds a lot extra latencies. So another design was created so called RISC, found in e.g. ARM & MIPS. When you strictly follow the design rules (no one does so) you cannot remove features from those like in x86, cause you couldn't emulate the commands in hardware. Only recompiling the software help cause the API/ABI changed.

Now GPUs are neither CISC (x86) nor RISC, but they must be FAST, damn FAST. Being to complicated with too many unused special cmds like in x86 this cannot be done, so they are a combination of a reduced & fast instruction set. But with time ppl demand more and so T&L, shaders, ... were added and the GPUs needed to become more flexible. So a GPU is a Hybrid of being flexible & being fast. Like all Hybrids their nature is not 50:50, some are more flexible some less etc.
So there are a lot totally different approaches: Nvidia is different from ATi, and those are different from PowerVR ... and vendors even switch theirs with time (e.g. Fermi GPUs are totally different to the previous ones)

So GPUs don't share the same instruction or feature set!
Only the driver adds a layer that makes them map features to their own instruction set and allows so to run the same software on different hardware.
AF wrote:EA isn't going to build using Mantle alone, in the same way an engine can have OGL and DirectX renderers. Unless AMD is paying them a wad of cash to do this I doubt Mantle will be anything more than a toggle under settings that will probably make things buggy.
For EA it's no problem atm, they just port their PS4/XBOX1 renderer with a few minor adjustments. But this doesn't save them any work (in contrast to what ATi tries to promote in their slides), cause they still need to write a DirectX renderer (maybe even 2 for DX9 & 10/11) when they want to support non-GCN gpus and nvidia (duno if they support intel).
For them it's just a PR lowcost trick to sell their game: a lot ati ppl will buy the game with their new gpu just to see the speedup effect.
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varikonniemi
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Re: AMD "Mantle"

Post by varikonniemi » 30 Sep 2013, 08:06

Can you post any source that states you have to code low level codepaths specifically for each GPU? I still believe you code for the mantle API (similar to DX or OGL API) and that the driver translates this into low level instructions on the supported GPUs :)
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zerver
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Re: AMD "Mantle"

Post by zerver » 30 Sep 2013, 13:40

I always liked low level shit, so for the time being I'm giving AMD thumbs up. The .NET framework currently fills up one quarter of my SSD, this is a prime example of what happens when these higher level APIs become increasingly bloated.
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AF
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Re: AMD "Mantle"

Post by AF » 02 Oct 2013, 18:54

zerver wrote:I always liked low level shit, so for the time being I'm giving AMD thumbs up. The .NET framework currently fills up one quarter of my SSD, this is a prime example of what happens when these higher level APIs become increasingly bloated.
Which .Net framework?
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very_bad_soldier
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Re: AMD "Mantle"

Post by very_bad_soldier » 02 Oct 2013, 21:24

All the people that I know who are complaining about .NET are the ones who never seriously coded with it. No joke.
As long as file size of the runtime is the major complain against .NET I think MS did a great job.
Btw .NET filling 1/4 of your SSD? Ever considered to upgrade your 8GB SSD? 8)

And no, I am not an MS fanboi. I am coding 98% of the time in C++ with gcc (which is great for its purposes also) but I am happy about every chance to use something more advanced (language and library wise).
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zerver
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Re: AMD "Mantle"

Post by zerver » 02 Oct 2013, 23:21

I didn't say it was bad. C# code looks better than C++.

But it is bloated and there are many versions and security patches that add up. Each installation takes a long time because it precompiles stuff.

AMD deciding to use .NET for its driver package is the biggest mistake ever. Something that should be a 2 meg download is instead 200 megs.
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varikonniemi
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Re: AMD "Mantle"

Post by varikonniemi » 08 Oct 2013, 10:04

jK wrote:2. OpenGL supports extensions for this very reason, so they could implement all their shiny commands with it, but no they want to have a `AMD only` feature (similar to PhysX for Nvidia just worse)
They are implementing everything they can from mantle as open gl extensions.

http://www.dsogaming.com/news/amd-aims- ... ottleneck/
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very_bad_soldier
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Re: AMD "Mantle"

Post by very_bad_soldier » 14 Nov 2013, 13:18

jK wrote:
varikonniemi wrote:Nvidia is almost forced to support mantle. They have no chance of pushing a competing product out since AMD produces the current and next gen consoles graphics and mantle can be used to code for both xbox one and pc.
You don't understand anything at all what Mantle is.
Mantle IS NEVER compatible between different hardware, it won't even be for 2 different AMD gpu generations (Mantle won't be compatible for HD5xxx & their upcoming GCN!!!).
It is low-level, means you have to code for each hardware separatly.

So Nvidia could write their own Mantle `driver`, but it could never be compatible with AMD's Mantle for current gen or GCN.
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/ ... 45398.html

Basically he says that Mantle is possible for every GPU that meets some prerequisites.

So never say never...
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varikonniemi
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Re: AMD "Mantle"

Post by varikonniemi » 14 Nov 2013, 13:27

Latest updates on Mantle:

AMD Wants Mantle On Linux, OS X, Mobile Devices
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=n ... px=MTUxMzY

Where it seems i was wrong was that XBO does not use Mantle as was speculated, but rather Mantle is derived from the xb360/xbo graphics API.
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klapmongool
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Re: AMD "Mantle"

Post by klapmongool » 03 Feb 2014, 10:04

http://community.amd.com/community/amd- ... for-gamers

Mantle has been released, will it work on Spring?
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Floris
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Re: AMD "Mantle"

Post by Floris » 03 Feb 2014, 12:14

ofcource not

There is lots of other cpu optimizations that need to be done first. And GPU is not the bottleneck of spring. Esp in case of the mantle enabled cards out there.
And yes mantle could reduce the cpu load a bit too but well.... Optimizing just only for the already high end is just not viable for spring imho.

....unless adding support is just adding a libary, but I highly doubt that.
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Silentwings
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Re: AMD "Mantle"

Post by Silentwings » 03 Feb 2014, 15:06

Afaik no one has expressed any interest in doing it and since ATI/AMD has a long history of handling opengl poorly I can't really see why anyone would want to try. So, no!
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AntiAllez
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Re: AMD "Mantle"

Post by AntiAllez » 03 Feb 2014, 20:33

sounds ignorant...
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Silentwings
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Re: AMD "Mantle"

Post by Silentwings » 03 Feb 2014, 20:43

code won't write itself...
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Super Mario
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Re: AMD "Mantle"

Post by Super Mario » 03 Feb 2014, 20:54

gajop wrote:*image*
Thanks for the laugh, I needed that.
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smoth
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Re: AMD "Mantle"

Post by smoth » 03 Feb 2014, 21:10

AntiAllez wrote:sounds ignorant...
doesn't stop you from posting things...
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