Why not SpringRTS? - Page 2

Why not SpringRTS?

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knorke
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Re: Why not SpringRTS?

Post by knorke » 27 Jul 2013, 17:48

I think an rts engine with scripting ability (like spring) carters to a very niche group of people.

One must be interessted in making video games but not interessted enought to make your own game from scratch.
Big advantage with spring seems to be that you do not need to program very much, just model a bit, edit some numbers and the first tank is driving around. Compared to copypasting tutorials until you get a moving circle it is an easy start.
Perfect for casual hobby projects but for professionals that is irrelevant.
eh there is no point in debating what has and has not been done in engine.
Well people frequently say some things are impossible just because nobody has done it yet.
For example melee, I am sure the melee units of zK, KP & Cursed are not the best spring can do. It just the same old "invisible weapon+animation" way that is done since years.
Those games have just 2,3 melee units, it works good enough, why make some overkill complex thing?
Does not mean "real melee" or whatever is not feasible to make, there was just no interesst.

mapping:
Thousands of user-created maps show that this is the most accessible form of making spring stuff.
In some games you are stuck with whatever editor it brings.
In spring you can use your favorite terrain/graphic editing software. If some maps look bad it is more a problem of "how do i photoshop and terragen", not so much fault of spring/its tools.

Think people making small projects would get a large boost if it was easier to actually play them. For example Spring Tanks is supereasy and casual to play, but first player must manage to get ingame.
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smoth
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Re: Why not SpringRTS?

Post by smoth » 27 Jul 2013, 18:05

knorke wrote:I think an rts engine with scripting ability (like spring) carters to a very niche group of people.

One must be interessted in making video games but not interessted enought to make your own game from scratch.
Big advantage with spring seems to be that you do not need to program very much, just model a bit, edit some numbers and the first tank is driving around. Compared to copypasting tutorials until you get a moving circle it is an easy start.
Perfect for casual hobby projects but for professionals that is irrelevant.
ogre can get something moving around pretty quickly and that was like 6-7 YEARS ago last I played with it
knorke wrote:Well people frequently say some things are impossible just because nobody has done it yet.
yeah or that the solution is such an ugly hack to get it to work that people don't see it as a viable solution. I don't want to get into the what is a hack and what is a kludge debate several people here do not share my opinion on the matter. So I don't want to get into THAT discussion again.

knorke wrote:For example melee, I am sure the melee units of zK, KP & Cursed are not the best spring can do. It just the same old "invisible weapon+animation" way that is done since years.
Those games have just 2,3 melee units, it works good enough, why make some overkill complex thing?
Does not mean "real melee" or whatever is not feasible to make, there was just no interesst.
I don't know about that knorke, I think if someone knew how to better write it, it would have been done. I truthfully don't even know where to start and have not see a good implementation yet that I can learn from. Maybe I should look at the TL source code and see how they handle it.
knorke wrote: mapping:
Thousands of user-created maps show that this is the most accessible form of making spring stuff.
In some games you are stuck with whatever editor it brings.
In spring you can use your favorite terrain/graphic editing software. If some maps look bad it is more a problem of "how do i photoshop and terragen", not so much fault of spring/its tools.

Think people making small projects would get a large boost if it was easier to actually play them. For example Spring Tanks is supereasy and casual to play, but first player must manage to get ingame.
I personally think having a proper level editor with mesh tiles would be great. I would prefer warcraftIII's format over what we have right now because I more easily control differing aspects. I have some thoughts on how to achieve it but nothing solid yet and as I have not touched any spring code in 1 month+ i find I have to remember a whole bunch of stuff just to restart. That is IF I can.
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gajop
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Re: Why not SpringRTS?

Post by gajop » 27 Jul 2013, 18:31

smoth wrote:I personally think having a proper level editor with mesh tiles would be great. I would prefer warcraftIII's format over what we have right now because I more easily control differing aspects.
We need engine support to: edit large maps' textures and properly save map textures (it's way too much work to do it yourself in lua).
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smoth
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Re: Why not SpringRTS?

Post by smoth » 27 Jul 2013, 18:41

gajop wrote:
smoth wrote:I personally think having a proper level editor with mesh tiles would be great. I would prefer warcraftIII's format over what we have right now because I more easily control differing aspects.
We need engine support to: edit large maps' textures and properly save map textures (it's way too much work to do it yourself in lua).
I don't agree. That is a lot of fileIO. Too much IMO
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knorke
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Re: Why not SpringRTS?

Post by knorke » 27 Jul 2013, 18:59

I don't know about that knorke, I think if someone knew how to better write it, it would have been done. I truthfully don't even know where to start and have not see a good implementation yet that I can learn from.
That is not really an arguement that something can not be done or nobody knows how to. If one makes something new there is never a good implementation to learn from. All new gadgets are done from scratch. What is TL?
yeah or that the solution is such an ugly hack to get it to work that people don't see it as a viable solution.
Some people might not believe any of the existing solutions to things like jumpjets, terraform, shields etc are viable...
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smoth
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Re: Why not SpringRTS?

Post by smoth » 27 Jul 2013, 20:36

I never like reinventing the wheel when many people have better implimentations where they have already worked out many issues. TL = Torchlight
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scifi
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Re: Why not SpringRTS?

Post by scifi » 27 Jul 2013, 23:49

@JK

Well i know that making an RTS in unity you have to code everything from the movement to the camera, to pathfinding, range triggers weapon defs, and ofc your restricted to what you put on your scene performance wise, your better off making your own engine.

The thing i was saying is spring is great for small games as well, and i just feel that new people that migth be interested on spring migth overlook that fact. Its actualy one of springs best features, how easy you can get something going.
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smoth
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Re: Why not SpringRTS?

Post by smoth » 28 Jul 2013, 00:53

scifi wrote:. Its actualy one of springs best features, how easy you can get something going.
Image

or worse depending on how much you like units that can only go: n/nw/w/sw/s/se/e/ne because unless you write the movement with movecontrol, have fun with that.

Spring is easy to start with you then spend years working around all the shit you DON'T want it to do
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Google_Frog
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Re: Why not SpringRTS?

Post by Google_Frog » 28 Jul 2013, 06:46

For really small games you might be able to get away with using QTPFS. Then units can move in any direction.
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smoth
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Re: Why not SpringRTS?

Post by smoth » 28 Jul 2013, 07:07

last I tried it, it was buggy. I am hoping kloot is still improving it. next version of spring *crosses fingers*
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PicassoCT
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Re: Why not SpringRTS?

Post by PicassoCT » 28 Jul 2013, 13:00

smoth wrote:
knorke wrote:For example melee, I am sure the melee units of zK, KP & Cursed are not the best spring can do. It just the same old "invisible weapon+animation" way that is done since years.
Those games have just 2,3 melee units, it works good enough, why make some overkill complex thing?
Does not mean "real melee" or whatever is not feasible to make, there was just no interesst.
I don't know about that knorke, I think if someone knew how to better write it, it would have been done. I truthfully don't even know where to start and have not see a good implementation yet that I can learn from. Maybe I should look at the TL source code and see how they handle it.
Better Melee has been done - just not in spring- because egg and chicken- you need a keyframe animation system + blending, for liquidd slicing and slashing. But then- well the classic one is to lock two combatants together into a meta unit, and have bystanders just stab towards that general direction. And within that meta unit, you know who is who, where is where, and they can hit each others head to there hearts content.
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Anarchid
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Re: Why not SpringRTS?

Post by Anarchid » 29 Jul 2013, 14:50

But then- well the classic one is to lock two combatants together into a meta unit, and have bystanders just stab towards that general direction. And within that meta unit, you know who is who, where is where, and they can hit each others head to there hearts content.
You can even do this without the meta units, gluing arbitrary pieces together, etc.

The problem comes with scripting those fluid organic animations, which is pure unabated pain that gnaws on your bones from inside your brain, and painkillers won't help.

Yeah, keyframes and maybe NLA's would be nice, but both could be approximated if tools were available. GIve me a working bvh to lus converter* for individual animations, and i'll make you an NLA'd melee unit. This is a dare.

(as per the "why", even this approach is not something somebody would get into, without prior in-depth knowledge of "howto springrts")
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FLOZi
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Re: Why not SpringRTS?

Post by FLOZi » 29 Jul 2013, 16:25

Define 'working' bvh to lus converter
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Anarchid
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Re: Why not SpringRTS?

Post by Anarchid » 29 Jul 2013, 17:07

Define 'working' bvh to lus converter
A piece of software capable of being run on modern windows or linux machines, in form suitable for maintenance, that is capable of taking the following inputs:
1) A bvh file containing a skeleton and a single animation.

And converting it to following outputs:
1) A string of Lua Unit Script instructions for reproducing the animation described in the bvh file.

Assuming the following hold true:
1) Geometry of the bvh skeleton matches geometry of piece relations in model on which the script will be run.
2) Piece names in unit model are identical with corresponding bone names in BVH.

That is the description.

Asterisk after working in previous message was supposed to be followed with:
"* not upspring"

Because upspring bvh importer doesn't seem to work very well, and upspring itself cannot be compiled in modern toolchain. That is the catch.
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FLOZi
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Re: Why not SpringRTS?

Post by FLOZi » 29 Jul 2013, 19:18

Anarchid wrote:
Define 'working' bvh to lus converter
Asterisk after working in previous message was supposed to be followed with:
"* not upspring"
:cry:
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Silentwings
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Re: Why not SpringRTS?

Post by Silentwings » 29 Jul 2013, 23:17

We need engine support to: edit large maps' textures and properly save map textures
I disagree too - there is already enough pressure on the functionality of the engine. It would be much better to have independent projects for map editors/creators. (My solution for now; if you don't care too much about the fancy stuff then World Machine is fantastic for mapping, but its not free.)
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varikonniemi
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Re: Why not SpringRTS?

Post by varikonniemi » 30 Jul 2013, 10:53

The reason is that for many months now i have been unable to play zero-k at all due to the engine fiasco. How would anyone consider using the engine as the basis for anything serious, when there have been 10+ months since a ok working engine has been released (and with no version for Linux)?

I have not been developing for spring for many months now since i am not able to and i cannot be sure what the future looks like. Will the situation improve? I don't know. I am just sad my favourite RTS has come to this.
Last edited by varikonniemi on 30 Jul 2013, 10:59, edited 1 time in total.
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Anarchid
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Re: Why not SpringRTS?

Post by Anarchid » 30 Jul 2013, 10:58

FWIW, zkinfo download page has step-by-step copy-by-paste instructions on how to get it working under linux. That does involve building spring 91.0 from sources, though.

Only thing it misses is "sudo apt-get build-dep spring", because apparently the package listing provided doesn't always work.
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varikonniemi
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Re: Why not SpringRTS?

Post by varikonniemi » 30 Jul 2013, 11:03

Yes i know. I have done it before, i could do it now. The fact that it is the only way possible to overcome the current situation tells how severe the situation is.

And if i did that, how would i play BA with 94.1? Yeah, it just requires another hack.

Some months ago i decided to just wait for the holy Spring 95 and reassess the situation. I have some hope from what i have seen in the test builds :!:
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Anarchid
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Re: Why not SpringRTS?

Post by Anarchid » 30 Jul 2013, 14:09

And if i did that, how would i play BA with 94.1? Yeah, it just requires another hack.
All lobbies except SL are now capable of upholding multi-engine installs. ZKL is one of those lobbies, and engines from 92 onwards will even download automatically.

Also, you can play BA with ZKL, too. At least, last time i played Evo it was with ZKL.
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