New Console Generation - Page 4

New Console Generation

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klapmongool
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Re: New Console Generation

Post by klapmongool » 06 Jul 2013, 09:03

Cheesecan wrote: Most people don't think they are entitled to go into a store and rob the owner blind.
And that is not what downloading is.
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PicassoCT
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Re: New Console Generation

Post by PicassoCT » 06 Jul 2013, 16:43

Cheesecan wrote:Well I sit in front of a PC the whole day at the office. On certain days when I'm feeling particularly lazy, I go home and chill out on the couch with the xbox. On other days I want the more expressive feeling of PC gaming. I think they complement each other rather than cancel each other out.

I wouldn't have said the same before I got the xbox though. Back then I felt consoles were synonymous with casual and/or kiddie games. When I grew up most console games really were like that.

As for the microsoft employee detected comment, I'm not. I write software for a living and wouldn't want to start up a software company just to have my work pirated. Then again I'm not vehemently against piracy, I just think people should be able to continue earning a living doing what they enjoy and are good at.

Most people don't think they are entitled to go into a store and rob the owner blind. But perhaps 2/3rds (made up number) of youths think the same thing is fine if the victim is a software company. Simply because the victim is far removed so consequences are less apparent.

But if the scales tip too far that software company goes out of business and everyone loses; the consumer, the employees and their families, etc. If you think that is morally fine, then I don't think you are deserving of anything. You should try living without and see how you like that. For certain, it is not something you are entitled to. If you appreciate something you should support it. Reversely, if you don't appreciate it let the market kill it. Corporations spend huge amounts of money in advertising to fool consumers into buying products based on lies. I prefer to see the bad products vanish rather than be kept alive by regretful consumers. Long live the market.
panem and circensis.

You dont get rich in the two things a state has always to provide else uprisings. Just get over it. I know what im talking about.
As for me, if i have the option a) a pirate playing and b) a pirate rooming the city streets at night and bored, i know where my money is.
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PauloMorfeo
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Re: New Console Generation

Post by PauloMorfeo » 07 Jul 2013, 03:03

Cheesecan wrote:...
Most people don't think they are entitled to go into a store and rob the owner blind. But perhaps 2/3rds (made up number) of youths think the same thing is fine if the victim is a software company. ...
Most of the purchase money that fails to happen because of piracy is not a loss for the software company but, instead, loss to the retailers, to the distributors, taxes to the governments, and so on. The amount of money that actually goes to companies/people that create games is very small (per unit) in most games.

This is the standard not only in computer games, but also in music - it is a very well known problem in music. Both are content that is extremely easily replicateable and distributable (currently, through the Internet).


Developers not getting a worhtfull amount of money for what they created because of piracy is just wrong.

Paying freaking 60€ for a freaking game for a console, of which only some 6€ are going to go to the developers and the rest freaking 90% will go to engorge people that added no value whatsoever to the game, paying 60€ for a console game when you'd pay 40€ for the same game for Windows, that is just wrong also.

Paying 40€ for a game from retail and 40€ for that same game directly from the developer as a digital download (avoiding physical content costs as well as huge taxes and profit margins times n parties until it hits the final client) is freaking outrageous.

Paying 15€ for a music album with the soundtrack of a movie, while the movie itself costed 7.5€ (VHS/CD times) is freaking outrageous.


There are many games/music albums I'd which I could have supported the developers by giving them a fair share of money for what they created. But I can't stand being F'd and F'd and F'd all over the place!!!

I am a software developer.
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Forboding Angel
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Re: New Console Generation

Post by Forboding Angel » 07 Jul 2013, 04:10

It's called the Advance Against Royalties model and was pioneered by the music industry and is a cancer which needs to die as it benefits only the publishers(labels).

Chris Taylor goes into some detail about it here: http://youtu.be/5zJdMRKBbLE

I highly recommend watching the entire thing.

The thing that kills me is that Chris Taylor allowed GPG to use this model, knowing how thoroughly toxic it is.

As a musician who has been signed to a record label, I can firsthand attest for the toxicity of this model. Thankfully, due to some legal wranglings of my(our) own, we were able to sidestep the worst parts of this. Sadly, our album was not marketed as a result by the label nor even put in stores.

Labels get you by the balls and keep you there. Once again, thanks to some legal wrangling, we have retained the copyrights to our own music, meaning that I can do whatever the fuck I want with it.

But yeah, is very bad and piracy does not hurt the developers at all. If you want to help the developers, send the development studio a check for 20 bucks. That will help them far more than the $1 they are making from you buying it off the shelf for $60.
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smoth
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Re: New Console Generation

Post by smoth » 07 Jul 2013, 04:16

The software developer often doesn't put forth the principle on the investment.
The software developer seldom benefits when the game sells well.(inbefore bullshit promotions and crap about how the company appreciates you)
The software developer is not the one who puts all the units out there.
the software developer doesn't pay for advertising
the software developer isn't the store owner who puts units on the shelf so your project is out there on market.

I am a SOFTWARE DEVELOPER as well, whoopty do. What about the artists? musicians, sound technicians, what about the poor schmuck putting all the money out there for the team to have a job.. you know, the guy paying your checks out.

as software developers were are awarded a great deal of trust. They have to. If we do a good job, we sometimes move to more and more critical things. Don't ever expect to be a rich dude if you are always a grunt. it takes years of work to develop a great reputation, and to make something actually fun so you can eventually sell off your ip and company to retire.

I am not sure if you are saying we should promote piracy because the owner doesn't profit share to your level of acceptability or not.. .but it sure feels like it.I hope the above does not sound like I am busting your dick, just more that I think it brings up interesting problems.
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luckywaldo7
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Re: New Console Generation

Post by luckywaldo7 » 08 Jul 2013, 18:52

I do not pirate and I do not condone piracy. Actually, I have very good reasons for not pirating, and those are the same reasons I think claims of piracy being the death of the PC gamer market are extremely silly: steam, GoG, humble bundles, and (with a risk) kickstarter. Good products and services are successful.

The people who are loudest about piracy tend to also be the ones known for their awful products. (Looking at you EA)

Edit: After actually reading the last couple posts I see that the discussion went way more in detail. I don't have much to add, except that Advance Against Royalties business is the reason I very much support the crowd-sourced/crowd-funded development model, despite some rockiness in the process so far.
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knorke
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Re: New Console Generation

Post by knorke » 08 Jul 2013, 19:12

It's called the Advance Against Royalties model and was pioneered by the music industry and is a cancer which needs to die as it benefits only the publishers(labels).
The artist/developer also benefits from it because the publishers do the publishing. Advertising costs money. So maybe in the end the developer only gets 5% of the $1000000000000 but that is still more than 100% of $1000
If you want to help the developers, send the development studio a check for 20 bucks. That will help them far more than the $1 they are making from you buying it off the shelf for $60.
If everybody was to do that then the development studio would have money but the publisher would cancel their contract because there were no sales.
So the next project of that studio has no publisher, no advertisment and nobody will know about it or send them 20 bucks.
This is the standard not only in computer games, but also in music - it is a very well known problem in music. Both are content that is extremely easily replicateable and distributable (currently, through the Internet).
A download or even a CD has only a few cents production cost, yes.
But I think for games/music/movies you must count advertising towards production cost and then it is alot of money.
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smoth
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Re: New Console Generation

Post by smoth » 08 Jul 2013, 22:22

luckywaldo7 wrote:I do not pirate and I do not condone piracy. Actually, I have very good reasons for not pirating, and those are the same reasons I think claims of piracy being the death of the PC gamer market are extremely silly: steam, GoG, humble bundles, and (with a risk) kickstarter. Good products and services are successful.
no doubt. Look at notch. the dude straight up said IDGAF about people pirating. If they are maybe I didn't offer them enough

<3 that post.
luckywaldo7 wrote:The people who are loudest about piracy tend to also be the ones known for their awful products. (Looking at you EA)
yeah, that shit royally pisses me off "I have a great idea, lets impliment drm that shits on people! LOOK EVERYONED PIRATED IT!(to get around the drm, the guys possibly also own legit copies) or the drm was so opppressive no one wanted to buy a game that they could not play it except when ea has it's servers up. My favorite game of ALL TIME is online only bullshit thanks to EA ; ^ ; bastards.
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Noruas
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Re: New Console Generation

Post by Noruas » 08 Jul 2013, 22:45

:lol:
I mean I love it when someone bashes the Established Assholes.
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smoth
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Re: New Console Generation

Post by smoth » 08 Jul 2013, 22:50

can't really bust the dicks of the unestablished assholes. They are not big enough yet to bust their dick.

I would like to punch the asshole who is DDOSing cubeworld. It would have been nice after my past 2 weeks of hell to have that game come out and me be able to buy it!
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Funkencool
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Re: New Console Generation

Post by Funkencool » 09 Jul 2013, 00:02

I'm going to have to agree with the last posts. I used to pirate when I was younger. Then steam came and with a mixture of that and maturity I haven't pirated in years. Now I even own most the games I once pirated (the ones I actually played).

Side-Note:
What I hate most about big publishers is they don't really do niches anymore. Big publishers want EVERYONE to buy the games they publish. I think that is what ruins most games when they get to popular. A certain aspect of the game Some people LOVE gets replaced with something more people LIKE. They need to realize not every game has to be AAA and sell to the masses.
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Cheesecan
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Re: New Console Generation

Post by Cheesecan » 09 Jul 2013, 00:35

It's good to see that not all people support no-buts piracy. In the case of notch(reductio ad notchium?) he probably already was filthy rich by the time he said that.

And yeah, developers and other value-generators get bread crumbs, bread crumbs that are taxed higher than the investors returns. When I started buying games as a kid, if you were too poor to afford the new games you went to the used game section and got a bargain there.

Nobody is forcing you to pay $60 for AAA 0day game, in the same way nobody forced you to pirate that game. Blaming DRM is like saying that if the store owner installed an alarm then it's fair game.
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luckywaldo7
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Re: New Console Generation

Post by luckywaldo7 » 09 Jul 2013, 01:02

Cheesecan wrote:Blaming DRM is like saying that if the store owner installed an alarm then it's fair game.
Especially in the aformentioned 'always online' DRM, its an alarm that stays on a product you have legitimately bought and continues to harass you. You know, just in case you hadn't bought it.
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smoth
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Re: New Console Generation

Post by smoth » 09 Jul 2013, 01:29

Cheesecan wrote:DRM is like saying that if the store owner grabs your balls(and not in good way) for being his patron.
ftfy

I'd be sure to patronize every other store.
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Cheesecan
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Re: New Console Generation

Post by Cheesecan » 09 Jul 2013, 01:34

Is StarForce still in use? I haven't encountered this type of really annoying DRM for years. Most seem to have fallen back to less intrusive protection like using serial keys to limit online access, which is fine and creates incentive to buy the game if you want to enjoy it beyond singleplayer.

I bought Assassin's Creed 3 (Ubisoft) using Download-purchase, it was about $35 and still quite new then. No DRM as far as I could tell. Also bought lots of games on Steam and other services like it. If you can wait half a year prices start to make more sense. Xbox Live purchases are horrible though, they charge full price for 18 months.
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PicassoCT
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Re: New Console Generation

Post by PicassoCT » 09 Jul 2013, 12:57

I really hate the use DRM to silently kill the product -so it successors can be sold. The Always online DRM is basically just a limited amount of playtime, before they shut down the servers.

And EA is famous for selling dysfunctional products. I remember buying BF 2149 and it was a great game- except the borked EA Origin wouldnt update it, wouldnt accept my keys, wouldnt do anything except preventing me play. Hell it wouldnt even allow me to install the missionpack that came along with it.

Dont have the same complaints on the torrent. If you deliver bad products and bad service, you deserve to be flogged in the street.

Yeah, i bought some of the EA Games - legally when i was young.
Sorry. I was stupid, and thought they needed the money.
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Funkencool
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Re: New Console Generation

Post by Funkencool » 09 Jul 2013, 15:13

Cheesecan wrote:It's good to see that not all people support no-buts piracy. In the case of notch(reductio ad notchium?) he probably already was filthy rich by the time he said that.
If piracy on PC is such a problem; how did he get filthy rich, especially without DRM?
Cheesecan wrote: When I started buying games as a kid, if you were too poor to afford the new games you went to the used game section and got a bargain there.
hmm well apparently Microsoft doesn't like that you can do that.
Cheesecan wrote:Nobody is forcing you to pay $60 for AAA 0day game, in the same way nobody forced you to pirate that game. Blaming DRM is like saying that if the store owner installed an alarm then it's fair game.
Yea no one forced me to pay 60$ for diablo 3. I had just been waiting over 10 years for it, only to be thoroughly shit on when I bought and played it. And yes, mostly because of the DRM. Why the hell can't I play it offline or mod it? if I tried modding Diablo 3 I would lose my rights to even play the $60 game I bought.
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gajop
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Re: New Console Generation

Post by gajop » 09 Jul 2013, 15:21

You wouldn't mod a car.
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Funkencool
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Re: New Console Generation

Post by Funkencool » 09 Jul 2013, 15:27

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Cheesecan
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Re: New Console Generation

Post by Cheesecan » 09 Jul 2013, 20:06

Funkencool wrote: If piracy on PC is such a problem; how did he get filthy rich, especially without DRM?
The average game studio could only dream about the kind of profit margin he had. He raised the game industry revenue in Sweden by 100% that year more or less by himself.
Funkencool wrote: hmm well apparently Microsoft doesn't like that you can do that.
I have shared Xbox 360 game discs with friends and family no problem.
Funkencool wrote: Yea no one forced me to pay 60$ for diablo 3. I had just been waiting over 10 years for it, only to be thoroughly shit on when I bought and played it. And yes, mostly because of the DRM. Why the hell can't I play it offline or mod it? if I tried modding Diablo 3 I would lose my rights to even play the $60 game I bought.
Did they claim you could play offline or mod it?
There is a Diablo 3 demo you could have tried before making your purchase.
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