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Bitcoin mining made easy

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klapmongool
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Re: Bitcoin mining made easy

Post by klapmongool »

SpliFF wrote:If enough average Joes find the cost of entry to BTC too high then sooner or later an alternative BTC system will arise. That's what I keep trying to say. There is nothing forcing you to use BTC so if the holders of BTC price their "stock" too high they'll probably lose it all. BTC as an implementation can be copied so society on the whole will lose nothing. Only BTC speculators and hoarders really stand to lose.

It makes you wonder why nearly every Government insists on a single currency. It might be about making life simpler but it might also be about control.
If you saving money for long term goals (f.e. retirement) it is kinda nice not to see it dissappear because everyone switched to another currency. I'd like to see you call those elderly people hoarders.. :D
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SpliFF
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Re: Bitcoin mining made easy

Post by SpliFF »

Actually I do. I consider pension funds one of the worst kinds of scam. If you really want security for your retirement invest in property (the type you live on). If someone can take that off you then your money was never safe anyway.
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klapmongool
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Re: Bitcoin mining made easy

Post by klapmongool »

SpliFF wrote:Actually I do. I consider pension funds one of the worst kinds of scam. If you really want security for your retirement invest in property. If someone can take that off you then your money was never safe anyway.
I didnt say pension funds.

The reason a stable single currency is extremely handy is because you can save money for long term goals. Volatile currencies that can dissappear the next day are extremely fucked up for this purpose.

PS. you can't use money invested in property without loans.. also expressed in currency.
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SpliFF
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Re: Bitcoin mining made easy

Post by SpliFF »

My point is no money is "safe" or "stable". Ask the Cyprians. If you want something safe look to things a thief (or Government) can't easily take away. We live in times where white-collar and digital theft/fraud account for about 90% of crime so anything that is only yours by virtue of a digital agreement shouldn't be promoted as "safe". A thief can try to steal your land but they also have to occupy it first and that presents the greater of the two challenges even if you are getting old. I realise banks and Governments take land off people all the time but usually not without a fight so they tend to avoid it.

P.S. Maybe not coastal land - all things considered.
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klapmongool
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Re: Bitcoin mining made easy

Post by klapmongool »

SpliFF wrote:My point is no money is "safe" or "stable". Ask the Cyprians. If you want something safe look to things a thief (or Government) can't easily take away. We live in times where white-collar and digital theft/fraud account for about 90% of crime so anything that is only yours by virtue of a digital agreement shouldn't be promoted as "safe". A thief can try to steal your land but they also have to occupy it first and that presents the greater of the two challenges even if you are getting old. I realise banks and Governments take land off people all the time but usually not without a fight so they tend to avoid it.

P.S. Maybe not coastal land - all things considered.

How is that a good reason to introduce even more unsafe currencies? Also, it depends on the country you live in how safe your money is.
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PicassoCT
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Re: Bitcoin mining made easy

Post by PicassoCT »

Explain more ungave? Moore What? Its the printing presses, they make such noise! I CANT UNDERSTAND MY OWN WORDS. SHOULDNT HAVE USED THOSE EUROS AND DOLLARBILLS TO PLUG MY EARS I GUESS!!

Image

Image

Image

MORONSAVE! NOW I GET IT!
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zwzsg
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Re: Bitcoin mining made easy

Post by zwzsg »

But how else can average Joe be part of BTC system? He gets paid in dollar,euros, etc so HAS exchange them for BTC if he wants to buy anything with BTC. Atm you can not buy much with BTC anyway, so there will often be need to exchange BTC for dollars...
Average Joe has to exit the system, to quit his day job, to move to Russia, and to embrace a carreer of freelance black and white photographer. Then he can sells the product of his work (his picture) directly in bitcoin.


If you saving money for long term goals (f.e. retirement) it is kinda nice not to see it dissappear because everyone switched to another currency. I'd like to see you call those elderly people hoarders.. :D
If you're saving for retirement, don't keep your money in the form of cash! Buy a house, buy market stocks, buy diamonds, whatever, but don't store money in banknotes, because banknotes are pretty sure to devaluate.
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NeonStorm
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Re: Bitcoin mining made easy

Post by NeonStorm »

The only currency-value which can't be altered by government are working-hours :P

If you have some product P and the production cost is H estimated working-hours, you can't simply double it.

The downside of EACH, even the working-hour system, are artificial estimation errors - too high prices, risk awards, too high tax-forwarding to/for the seller ...

So what we need is not a system which limits trades but personal income.
OFC personal risk, efficiency, hard work, academic jobs should be sold bettter, but there need to be rules how much you can gain for each of your working hours.
So that everybody has "equal chances" instead of discrimination and nontransparent merit randomness.

And if you get money to do something, you shouldn't be sold better because you work with many money.
-> And to detect plundering/looting here, coherent systems managed by different peoples (digital money logging) is good.
-> -> But not without rules.

I hope my English was good enough for you :P
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zwzsg
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Re: Bitcoin mining made easy

Post by zwzsg »

Work-hour, as a monetary value, is inflationnary. You get more and more value with the same amount of work hour. In the dark age, with one work-hour, you'd get two grains, or a 10 cm deep ditch, or a cab for five mile, or a single page of writing. Nowaday, for one work-hour, you get a barnful of grain, or a 10m deep dtich, or a cab for 100 kilometer, or a thousand pages book.

As the automatisation of the mean of productions continue, we may eventually reach a point of singularity point where infinite amount of goods can be produced with zero work-hour, at which point you'll have to rethink our current society model that are way too much work-hour centric.
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SpliFF
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Re: Bitcoin mining made easy

Post by SpliFF »

klapmongool wrote:How is that a good reason to introduce even more unsafe currencies? Also, it depends on the country you live in how safe your money is.
I never said Bitcoin was required for investments. I just said you shouldn't hoard it. Hoarding anything you can't use or keep safe is just waiting for somebody to steal it. Also why do you think the country you live in matters? Greed (and banks) are multinational. Why do you expect me to tell you how to save for retirement? Try having 20 kids like the poorest families on Earth. Maybe one will still be rich when you retire. Otherwise gamble like everyone else. None of it is pro/con Bitcoin.
zwzsg wrote:Work-hour, as a monetary value, is inflationnary. You get more and more value with the same amount of work hour. In the dark age, with one work-hour, you'd get two grains, or a 10 cm deep ditch, or a cab for five mile, or a single page of writing. Nowaday, for one work-hour, you get a barnful of grain, or a 10m deep dtich, or a cab for 100 kilometer, or a thousand pages book.
I'm in Thailand right now I can can tell you categorically that 1 hour of work for a local Thai fisherman buys you little more than your Dark Ages analogy. I just walked past a group of locals having a communal shower with buckets in the main street. Your analogy only works for the top 1% just like it did back then.

P.S. Seriously? A barnfull of grain for 1 hour of work? Who are you, Justin Bieber?
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zwzsg
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Re: Bitcoin mining made easy

Post by zwzsg »

I don't know about thaïland, but the workhours of the chinese are getting increasingly expensive, and they sure amount for more than 1% of humans.

Do your fishermen still row? What do they wear? What's the inside of their house like?

Edit: Did I say a barnful? I meant a barrelful! :P Have you seen a modern harvester?
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SpliFF
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Re: Bitcoin mining made easy

Post by SpliFF »

Do your fishermen still row?
They have petrol but only because Thailand is oil-rich. If they had to they would row.

What do they wear?
Tee-shirts made in sweatshops by people even worse off than they are. They are actually the same tee-shirts we wear but at about 1/500th of the price (a tee-shirt costs the locals about 5 US cents). The difference is entirely due to brand exploitation (nobody cares about "Diesel" or "Nike" here)

What's the inside of their house like?
The same as the outside because they tend to only have 2 or 3 walls. Some live in their boats, which are typically the size of a large canoe. Some live on the pier.

If your trying to make the point they are richer than peasants of the middle ages you might be right but by so little a margin the rest of your concept is moot.

BTW. Your 100km taxi ride analogy is just as bad as your barn/barrel one. In Australia a 100km taxi ride costs about $300. I don't make anything like that in an hour, do you? Even the taxi driver isn't making that much.
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FLOZi
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Re: Bitcoin mining made easy

Post by FLOZi »

zwzsg wrote:Work-hour, as a monetary value, is inflationnary. You get more and more value with the same amount of work hour. In the dark age, with one work-hour, you'd get two grains, or a 10 cm deep ditch, or a cab for five mile, or a single page of writing. Nowaday, for one work-hour, you get a barnful of grain, or a 10m deep dtich, or a cab for 100 kilometer, or a thousand pages book.

As the automatisation of the mean of productions continue, we may eventually reach a point of singularity point where infinite amount of goods can be produced with zero work-hour, at which point you'll have to rethink our current society model that are way too much work-hour centric.
Obvious solution is to spread out the amount of work-hours required of any human, and due to the increase in productivity per hour this does not require a fall in living standards or productivity.

\o/
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SinbadEV
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Re: Bitcoin mining made easy

Post by SinbadEV »

I tend to see a middle ground here... tech/etc. WOULD allow every person to work less (or more efficiently) than they would have in the middle ages but, because of systems of control and uneven distribution, that is only the case for the 1% (or maybe the top 20% if we're talking within a specific country which itself is already in the top 20% of the global economy)
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zwzsg
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Re: Bitcoin mining made easy

Post by zwzsg »

In our country, so far, the decrease of work-hour has not been averaged on people, but instead you got some people working the same, and a rising number of people with no job at all.

Also, okay, each work-hour does produce more goods, but, people also require more good to be considered living decently. Before, you had a roof, four walls, a set of clothe, a chair , a table, and a knife, you'd be content. Nowday, everybody wants a flat screen, a smartphone, a car, just for starters. So, maybe increase of productivity could be used to make everybody more wealthy, instead of working less?
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FLOZi
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Re: Bitcoin mining made easy

Post by FLOZi »

zwzsg wrote:In our country, so far, the decrease of work-hour has not been averaged on people, but instead you got some people working the same, and a rising number of people with no job at all.

Also, okay, each work-hour does produce more goods, but, people also require more good to be considered living decently. Before, you had a roof, four walls, a set of clothe, a chair , a table, and a knife, you'd be content. Nowday, everybody wants a flat screen, a smartphone, a car, just for starters. So, maybe increase of productivity could be used to make everybody more wealthy, instead of working less?
Rise in productivity probably more than accounts for that, but yes, the first step is to even working hours out over the working age populace (and reduce that by increasing education age and decreasing pension age)
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malric
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Re: Bitcoin mining made easy

Post by malric »

zwzsg wrote:So, maybe increase of productivity could be used to make everybody more wealthy, instead of working less?
But you should allow both options, some people might appreciate more time (to play spring ofc) rather than a bigger flat screen.

Also, productivity does not mean more resources, energy comes to mind as something scarce. But I guess with 'cheap'/'not controlled'/'regenerable' energy governments would loose power, so nobody really tried so far to do it on a large scale.
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NeonStorm
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Re: Bitcoin mining made easy

Post by NeonStorm »

Does a flat screen not require less power than an old monitor? :P

But I agree, not everybody needs BIG screens. I don't even have a PC-screen, only a flat-TV with 60cm for everything.
You can't even buy a deep monitor today in Germany in most stores.

I don't need a car or a bike, because I live 30min away from the city center.
I never heat my apartment over 19 centigrade.


But what I really hate is, that even if you buy a toaster or light bulb, it has a desired life span.
The companies make the functionality expire earlier than they need to.

The planned obsolescence produces garbage. And we can't repair our cars ourself because of all the special electronic.

We have to buy some stuff again and again instead of just once - and throw it away when it is broken, because it is made to be not or very costly repairable.

Most peoples don't even know how to repair most things, and it is forbidden to repair some security electronics and similar in private - only workshops have this certificate.

We need much more than we have to need.
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malric
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Re: Bitcoin mining made easy

Post by malric »

NeonStorm wrote:Does a flat screen not require less power than an old monitor? :P
I have no clue, but was thinking anyhow about the energy needed to produce, not the one needed to operate.
NeonStorm wrote:The planned obsolescence produces garbage. And we can't repair our cars ourself because of all the special electronic.
To be honest sometimes you need to do just a small effort. I upgraded my Android phone with a custom ROM and it is MUCH faster than before. Did not think will be that big difference. But I agree many things are planned to be obsolete.

On bitcoin topic, just read that in Delft there is the first bar in Netherlands that accepts bitcoins. Should go and try it, just for fun 8) .
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smoth
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Re: Bitcoin mining made easy

Post by smoth »

This thread has gotten stupid.

look bitcoins are a bartering device with questionable underground status. Low liquidity, very situational use. I find their associated large markets to be dubious at best.

Money is a bartering device with somewhat questionable stability depending on your country and how far your head is up your ass. Citing economic failure is only relevant if you live in a small country. If you live in a larger country like aus, china or usa with large resources which can be monetized I would not fret.

Stocks and bonds are always a gamble and investing is still risky. That is why you take several different approaches in order to hedge losses. Z is correct, money sitting in the bank is devaluing, you loose liquidity at the cost of potential growth.

hoarding gold is goofy. Because if the government collapses who are you going to trade your gold with? No one will give a shit about your yellow rock.

TL;DR. Watch the market pay attention to your money, bitcoins are high risk IMO and if someone wants to spend time piddling with it, hey, great for them. Some people see comic books as a good way to safe haven money.
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