Dota 2 Discussion Thread - Page 2

Dota 2 Discussion Thread

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Rumpelstiltskin
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Re: Dota 2 Discussion Thread

Post by Rumpelstiltskin »

Too tedious thats all.
I dont see it as some sort of conceptually worst design decision but I find it tedious.
Farming to me is the most boring part of the game.
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smoth
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Re: Dota 2 Discussion Thread

Post by smoth »

Otherside wrote:How can you comment on a sluggish UI if you haven't used it yourself O_o
unsurprising response from you. The ui consists of more than JUST the in game ui.
*edit* perhaps I should expand on why this reply of yours was bad.

guy: "I tried the game but didn't like it.."
you: "you are a noob"

months later..

guy: "I am trying the game but still don't like it.."
you: "you are still a noob"

a year later

guy: "I just don't like the game"
you: "but you played it for year you must like something, also a year, what is your elo"
guy: 1234
you: "pfft you are not skilled enough to give a critque."

for you, only your opinion or the experience of some more seasoned fanboi is valid. You did it with CA and continue to. Everything is not going to appeal to everyone because we are looking for different things. It is great that you enjoy something but others might not find it fun, you need to accept this.
Otherside wrote:I don't really see the problem with creep denial its another mechanic that adds more depth to the game and also widens the gap between a good and bad player. Regardless of how little sense it would make in terms of story.

Its worked for 6+ years of dota and if you played dota enough you would learn to love it. I miss denying when I play LoL.
Not everyone's cup of tea. It isn't better or worse, some people find it to be a bad mechanic. I, like yan, find it to be pointless tedium.

also..
"widens the gap between a good and bad player."
Oh please that is intermediate skills gameplay at best. Sure there are some advanced things but I don't believe it to be a gap widener, just an extra mechanic.

I was more interested, honestly, in the trees I saw growing back that you can use as a combat resource. That was very interesting.
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Jazcash
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Re: Dota 2 Discussion Thread

Post by Jazcash »

If there's any spare invites going around I could use one (for my friend, so would need to be traded).

Steam ID is Jazcash, who'd have guessed? :P
Last edited by Jazcash on 24 Oct 2012, 00:17, edited 2 times in total.
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Otherside
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Re: Dota 2 Discussion Thread

Post by Otherside »

You could have just said you don't like the UI. Sluggish implies it is slow and unresponsive which If you don't play is a stupid comment to make.

Seriously you need to take a chill pill before you go in one of your ragey rants for no reason.

Also Yan if you find farming is boring then the game might not be for you and Bloodline Champions would be more appealing.

Denying exists in LoL for example just in a different way, pushing creeps into towers so the towers takes the last hits which imo is even more stupid than creep denial.
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Rumpelstiltskin
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Re: Dota 2 Discussion Thread

Post by Rumpelstiltskin »

I dont see what is stupid about it at all..
Towers dont kill minions in Dota 2?
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smoth
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Re: Dota 2 Discussion Thread

Post by smoth »

Otherside wrote:You could have just said you don't like the UI. Sluggish implies it is slow and unresponsive which If you don't play is a stupid comment to make.
You just didn't read the godamn post. I didn't say the in game ui. The non-in game ui is frustrating I found trying to get to my champion information a frustrating ordeal and then proceeded to go spec games instead of reading about the champs and playing..
Otherside wrote:Seriously you need to take a chill pill before you go in one of your ragey rants for no reason.
I was more a "not this shit again" response. You are not really doing enough to merit rage.
Otherside wrote:Denying exists in LoL for example just in a different way, pushing creeps into towers so the towers takes the last hits which imo is even more stupid than creep denial.
Creep denial, does exist but if you are good enough/have the composition/lane strength it is a non issue. Again, the way it works in HON/DOTA is tedious. In LOL it is less about direct last hitting your own minions and more indirect about positioning and lane pressure which makes it less about micro and more about your strategic play. Which is a more fun mechanic. Lane pressure vs tedious micro.
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scifi
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Re: Dota 2 Discussion Thread

Post by scifi »

Hey there, hoping into this discution.
Something for the people interested in diferences between both games, ive played both btw.

Check first awnser
http://gaming.stackexchange.com/questio ... -of-legend

ive read and found it quite interesting

just some quotes
For some reason, denying has become a crux of the argument between League of Legends and Dota2. To be perfectly honest, it doesn't really matter anywhere near as much as people prete
nd.
When you expand this concept to towers is when denying gains huge importance. If your team does not press the issue to force a conflict at the tower, you will lose out on that bonus. In League of Legends, you can just walk away if the other team wants to defend their tower. It's not going anywhere and you have nothing to lose by leaving. If the fight doesn't seem to be in your favor, there's no reason for it to happen.
Gamebreaking moments in Dota2 are frequent and essentially define the game. A commonly chosen hero, Enigma, has an ability called Black Hole which can render an entire opposing team useless for 4 seconds,
Independant of grafics, cause hey everyone has theyr taste rigth?.
Talking about ui, yh it was a bit slugish but its going to be fixed and improved or so i expect it to be.

So what do i think of it?, both games are very diferent games. Even though the guys opinion is a bit biased towards dota 2, i agree with most of it. LoL is amazing in terms of champions and the feel you have when your playng with one, and the game revolves on that experience. Dota is more tactical and you feel pleasure executing fine moves and tactical ganks etc.

Both games are high skill cap to play, but i have to end the verdict, dota 2 can be in the future a higher skill cap game if done rigth. But now its at the same level as LoL. Things arent finished yet, the metagame in dota 2 inst stabelized, counters dont work just yet. And when you play it, there are a ton of things to consider before starting to have fun learning all the stuff thats there. Unbalanced items and champs etc, it all takes time.

Also the awnsers are quite interesting to that post.
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smoth
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Re: Dota 2 Discussion Thread

Post by smoth »

I don't think either one is higher skill than the other such arguements are stupid. None of you are professional level as such, it doesn't matter to us, what should matter is what we do or don't enjoy playing.

we are all rank amatuers and should stop talking about how skilled or unskilled either game is. It is like comparing starcraft 2 with warcraft 3 they are very very similar but their differences(beyond graphics) are fundamental. I really find it obnoxious how dota/hon players like to tug their dicks about how their game requires so much skill because of X player from hon who is really good saying so when they are just fucking amatuers themself. For everyone but the professionals IMO the skill levels are even.

I feel like every time I see these threads I am reading a goddamn batman vs superman thread. It always goes down to the personal preference of the poster wining out. OMG WHO WOULD WIN? GOKU OR DARTH VADER ETC. Stupid shit.

I think they are different games and should be respected as such. I understand the dota/hon people want to feel superior and flaunt e-peen, that seems to be the trend since I started playing online in 1997. I just think it is fucking stupid and really based on subjective bias. We are not talking about comparing supcom with advanced wars. Both games have their skillled players and no one but maybe randy and day on this site can talk about skill level of the game. EVEN THEN it is highly dependent on their opinion of what that is and what they enjoy.

Getting away from the stupid bullshit about whos superhero(game) is better... what did you think of the tree mechanic scifi? I thought it was a neat addition
gajop
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Re: Dota 2 Discussion Thread

Post by gajop »

Disclaimer: I've first played DoTA 10 years ago, I've also played HoN and LoL a lot, although I haven't tried DoTA 2 yet.
smoth wrote:I don't think either one is higher skill than the other such arguements are stupid. None of you are professional level as such, it doesn't matter to us, what should matter is what we do or don't enjoy playing.
I was never in the really high elo branches in any of these games (I did easily get the Jarvan skin if that's a point of reference in LoL).
However, as far as those games are concerned, there's a skill difference between people in my (real life) friends' gaming circle. And that difference just feels wider in DoTA/HoN. Not just because of denying, but also due to losing gold on death, having a wider variety of item choices, and some other small things (couriers, flask capturing, etc.). All put together, it will make the skill difference really obvious.
The "problem" with that is that in DoTA/HoN, it's really hard to play with friends and have fun doing so, because it will boil down to having your better players get fed before your weaker players feed the enemy (although LoL does something similar, by often "forcing" weaker players to play marginal roles, such as support).

PS: Most of us consider the point of playing these types of games to be about winning, not having "fun" (which usually just means not doing what it takes to win) or "killing stuff" - the repetitive style of these games doesn't have room for much more.

PSS: The only reason we ever get back to LoL/DoTA is due to being bored of every other game. Everyone is rude, the community is awful, populated by minors or people acting as such. LoL was slightly better in that regard (really slightly though, it gets much worse the higher in elo you go), due to having a "smaller" skill gap (you can feed much worse in DoTA!).
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Rumpelstiltskin
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Re: Dota 2 Discussion Thread

Post by Rumpelstiltskin »

With the honor system rage has decreased substantially in LoL.
I'm talking about normal games of course, not ranked ones...
gajop
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Re: Dota 2 Discussion Thread

Post by gajop »

what's the point of honor? what does it do? it seems to be just an useless achievement
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Rumpelstiltskin
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Re: Dota 2 Discussion Thread

Post by Rumpelstiltskin »

It is, yet it seems to be enough to achieve it's goal.
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SinbadEV
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Re: Dota 2 Discussion Thread

Post by SinbadEV »

gajop wrote:what's the point of honor? what does it do? it seems to be just an useless achievement
Rumpelstiltskin wrote:It is, yet it seems to be enough to achieve it's goal.
Human behaviour is surprisingly easy to manipulate if you find where the buttons are hidden.
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Re: Dota 2 Discussion Thread

Post by gajop »

SinbadEV wrote:Human behaviour is surprisingly easy to manipulate if you find where the buttons are hidden.
But the Tribunal system (which threatens you with temporary/permanent bans) didn't force people to be more polite, in fact, you would only see people threatening each other, f.e: "report X for being a noob!!" "report Z for picking champion Y!!", and so on.

So how does this encourage good behavior, if from what I understand, it doesn't give you IP, RP, elo, nor does it group you with other "polite" people.

Am I missing something?
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SinbadEV
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Re: Dota 2 Discussion Thread

Post by SinbadEV »

gajop wrote:
SinbadEV wrote:Human behaviour is surprisingly easy to manipulate if you find where the buttons are hidden.
But the Tribunal system (which threatens you with temporary/permanent bans) didn't force people to be more polite, in fact, you would only see people threatening each other, f.e: "report X for being a noob!!" "report Z for picking champion Y!!", and so on.

So how does this encourage good behavior, if from what I understand, it doesn't give you IP, RP, elo, nor does it group you with other "polite" people.

Am I missing something?
allowing people to arbitrarily reward good behaviour is a lot more positive (and easier to swallow) than having people have the ability to turn each other in for offences... instead of punishing negative behaviour you are rewarding positive behaviour... that said, I don't actually play and am basing my comments on what I have heard about the honour system thing.

What I'm saying in my initial comment is mostly "it works because they have found a way to trick people into letting it work", I recall something about there being a situation in World of Warcraft where they were giving people less XP the longer they played to stop people from being able to hammer through the game too quick... people hated it in their testing but instead of changing it they started calling it "bonus XP when you've taken a rest" and people loved it and started playing more regularly to ensure they didn't miss out on their "bonus XP"
gajop
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Re: Dota 2 Discussion Thread

Post by gajop »

SinbadEV wrote:I recall something about there being a situation in World of Warcraft where they were giving people less XP the longer they played to stop people from being able to hammer through the game too quick... people hated it in their testing but instead of changing it they started calling it "bonus XP when you've taken a rest" and people loved it and started playing more regularly to ensure they didn't miss out on their "bonus XP"
I believe that may have something to do with China, as they were trying to force people not to play the game by giving far fewer rewards the more you played.
However, the big difference between the "rested system" and the honor system, is that the honor is useless (its a completely stand-alone mechanic), you aren't getting XP/IP/RP nor any other reward that has to do with other part of the game. At least when you do tribunal jury work (you get to judge who should and shouldn't be punished), you get IP (no reward for actually reporting people, but you usually do that before they annoy you).
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SinbadEV
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Re: Dota 2 Discussion Thread

Post by SinbadEV »

gajop wrote:
SinbadEV wrote:..."bonus XP"
I believe that may have something to do with China, as they were trying to force people not to play the game by giving far fewer rewards the more you played.
However, the big difference between the "rested system" and the honor system, is that the honor is useless (its a completely stand-alone mechanic), you aren't getting XP/IP/RP nor any other reward that has to do with other part of the game. At least when you do tribunal jury work (you get to judge who should and shouldn't be punished), you get IP (no reward for actually reporting people, but you usually do that before they annoy you).
It's not the "rested system" itself that I'm referring to, it's the idea that a mechanically identical system... when called something different... was popular and positive. The comparison being that the Honour system is using psychological tricks to change the way people play... the reward, as I understand it, is that people want to have high honour for the reputation as a good player that it implies. Rankings have no mechanical effect in most competitive games but that doesn't stop people from trying to get to the top of them.
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Otherside
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Re: Dota 2 Discussion Thread

Post by Otherside »

Reasons I feel Dota 2 has a higher skill cap than LoL and is the better competitive game (LoL is fine as a casual game)

Dota punishes you and is unforgiving, gold loss on death and denial can mean you can be severely locked down very quickly. LoL champions are naturally spammier with lower cd's and manacosts so misplacing wasting spells is more forgiveable.

Many more items with active effects. LoL is fairly limited in this respect and at most you carry one a time? be it DFG on an AP, Shurelias on a support or Raduins on a tank/bruiser (usually nothing on an AD) I am by no means a pro player in Dota 2 but i rarely have less than 4 active items in my inventory and so do most players in pro games.

Heroes with multiple units like Meepo or Lone Druid. I hate the fact you cannot properly control any summons you have in LoL and imo I think Riot is really limited themselves here. I wish I had more control of my ghouls and ulti when I play Yorick for example. Also I found it hilarious when a Riot dev said heroes like Invoker are anti fun, the hero is just very hard to master and rewards masterful play. I know its WTF mode but this is more akin to a SC2 player: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE9ecc0eQC0

LoL makes epic comebacks very rare and the game becomes slippery slope very quickly, the game is naturally bursty and lopsided. At first the towers make diving nigh on impossible because of how much damage they do and by the 20-25 minute mark they become trivial, one lost fight will mean GG as bases can fall in seconds so games tend to turn into cagey encounters where one fight will end the game instantly. I watched the worlds and I was saddened when they read out the average kills/assists stats. Also lanes are forced you rarely if ever see anything other than Top solo + jungle + AP mid + AD/Sup bot and the most you will see is top and bot swapping which in itself is extremely rare and happens only due to counter picks in lane it is just too predictable.

Seeing a 5 man blackhole with Enigma is rare and if you pull one off without getting stunned you deserve it.

Also this!: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ldq1afiKQb8

And Redbull sponsoring Dota 2 soon :)
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smoth
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Re: Dota 2 Discussion Thread

Post by smoth »

gajop wrote:Disclaimer: I've first played DoTA 10 years ago, I've also played HoN and LoL a lot, although I haven't tried DoTA 2 yet.
smoth wrote:I don't think either one is higher skill than the other such arguements are stupid. None of you are professional level as such, it doesn't matter to us, what should matter is what we do or don't enjoy playing.
I was never in the really high elo branches in any of these games (I did easily get the Jarvan skin if that's a point of reference in LoL).
However, as far as those games are concerned, there's a skill difference between people in my (real life) friends' gaming circle. And that difference just feels wider in DoTA/HoN. Not just because of denying, but also due to losing gold on death, having a wider variety of item choices, and some other small things (couriers, flask capturing, etc.). All put together, it will make the skill difference really obvious.
The "problem" with that is that in DoTA/HoN, it's really hard to play with friends and have fun doing so, because it will boil down to having your better players get fed before your weaker players feed the enemy (although LoL does something similar, by often "forcing" weaker players to play marginal roles, such as support).

PS: Most of us consider the point of playing these types of games to be about winning, not having "fun" (which usually just means not doing what it takes to win) or "killing stuff" - the repetitive style of these games doesn't have room for much more.

PSS: The only reason we ever get back to LoL/DoTA is due to being bored of every other game. Everyone is rude, the community is awful, populated by minors or people acting as such. LoL was slightly better in that regard (really slightly though, it gets much worse the higher in elo you go), due to having a "smaller" skill gap (you can feed much worse in DoTA!).
it has nothing to do with skill though. Skill is really just memorizing patterns and regurgitating them. People talk about skill like it is talent or intelligence. You can be skilled in anything, I reckon some of you are skilled masterbaters. It just takes doing something over and over again. Like bullet hell games or pacman. There is little room for creativity or variance the higher the complexity of the pattern becomes because the patterns require such specific forms to navigate them. The level of tedium of such complex pattern things is really high and thus becomes just a lot of training, 1,2,3 step, 1, 2, 3 step. Like shitty club dances.

IIRC dota2 and hon don't have masteries or rune pages which are separate from item builds. Is this correct? if so that is an extra level of complexity that they are without and should be compared.

I think using terms like how "skillful" one has to be to play a game are stupid. any idiot can play any moba. Not every one can do it well. I am sure just as in lol, dota and hon have easy mode champs which lose a lot of thier luster at high level play.

So maybe we should talk about games in terms of complexity of specific mechanics and how much we enjoy said mechanics. As I said earlier, I fully believe the games have different aspects that appeal or drive away different people. So we should perhaps as gamers discuss good and bad aspects from the perspect of what do or don't enjoy about certain types of gameplay.

Saying the game is crap because you can or cannot kill your own creeps is bad. I have many reasons I dislike dota, which I will not list because well certain people will try to convert me to something I am uninterested in. I really just wanted to discuss the tree regrowth and ui issues I have seen so far. I am really really turned off by the way they are doing champion customization tf2 style, I think it will not work for something this zoomed out.

Anyway, I am not convinced dota or hon are more complex. I think for a beginner dota and hon are more difficult because the complexity is taken out of the rune pages and masteries and instead put into the items only. Which is good and bad, neither pros and cons I feel are worth discussing in this thread with this group because essentially it will be people defending their game of choice.

I would like to if people want to be mature about it, discuss the elements I liked and felt were new like the packmule and trees that regrow.
Last edited by Google_Frog on 25 Oct 2012, 04:33, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: doublepost merge
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Rumpelstiltskin
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Re: Dota 2 Discussion Thread

Post by Rumpelstiltskin »

Who even cares?
I have been playing LOL, on and off, for two year or so and I don't feel It's in any way easy.
I never tried hard at being super competitive cause I know many are dedicating all their time to just playing LOL(I am still positive my skill level is above most of the community).
I cant and dont want to compete with that.
Otherside making comparisons As if he is at such a level that he reached the skill cap at LOL and now needs DOTA to give him a challenge....Give me a break.
From what I remember you were just an average player in HON and LOL.
Why do you care so much which one is more technically demanding?
Funny how you asked LOL fanboys to not ruin your thread and than yourself start making comparisons..

Professionals also dont give a shit since They want to make money and LOL provides that.
The only ones who are interested in making these comparisons are Fanboys who wanna feel good about themselves playing the supposedly more demanding game even if they suck at it.
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