Unlimited Polygons Technology is back - Page 2

Unlimited Polygons Technology is back

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PicassoCT
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Re: Unlimited Polygons Technology is back

Post by PicassoCT »

Noaw this convinced me...and surely the whole industry
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KaiserJ
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Re: Unlimited Polygons Technology is back

Post by KaiserJ »

lol @ notch

"its a hoax"

what a cunt; he's making a voxel game. with animation. its just that his is so incredibly simple and rough that he's unable to believe in this one i guess.

beyond that... of course you can have animation with voxels. try out voxelstein3d.

using this voxel system overlaid with a reasonable raycastable hit detection mesh and then populating it with polygon based sprites (remembering a GPU would be completely unused; the sprites could be very detailed) is certainly viable

and if they could conceivably create something like that, then why not a full-out game using only voxels?

just because i've been hinting that i'm working away on a secret project and showing only a few screens doesn't mean i'm a liar, does it?

but yeah, back to notch, that POS should be working on his game, not his blog. what a lazy pile.
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PicassoCT
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Re: Unlimited Polygons Technology is back

Post by PicassoCT »

they actually posted a test animation of a bird.

Its just they made a campaign that completely backfired, if i want to sell a 3dengine, i dont want to convince my customers customers, but instead my customers. That would sound like "No, big techchange for you. Just your usual editor, and no more poly limits, instead normalmap models converting. Something like that.

Instead they "In-your-face"d it. So we cant judge the tech, knowing nothing about it (vids are no real material), but we can judge the marketing campaign, and this is a unique disaster. You cant be this new.

Selling Insecurity, i actually even thought that this might be a viral- anti-new-tech-campaign by the big players, to avoid developing of new technologys now grafix have plataued.
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AF
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Re: Unlimited Polygons Technology is back

Post by AF »

hmmm where is this bird animation?
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smoth
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Re: Unlimited Polygons Technology is back

Post by smoth »

Kaiser minecraft is polygonal...

Also voxelstien is mentioned in his post, go reread it
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KaiserJ
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Re: Unlimited Polygons Technology is back

Post by KaiserJ »

the minecraft landscape is very much like voxels. although the rendering is different i would be very surprised if the data in minecraft was much different from that of voxelstien (3d array of cubes)

he goes on a bit about the repetition of elements in each rendered video; i don't even want to think about how much work it would be to fill that size of a space with unique structures... maybe it would be a comparable amount of work in man-hours to creating this hypothetical engine in the first place... lots of small cubes

i just feel like writing something objective like "its a scam" and then filling a post with suppositions and subjective commentary is misleading... and beyond that, the links at the end of the post seemed to disprove his points (bad animation in a voxel based game)

even if this "Euclideon" is misrepresenting progress and possibilities, i'm pretty convinced that really nice voxel games could be created in the way they seem to hint towards, providing dump-trucks filled with money are plowed into the project (and this is based more on other voxel stuff like voxelstien i've been able to work with, rather than these teaser videos)
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smoth
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Re: Unlimited Polygons Technology is back

Post by smoth »

3d array != voxels
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PicassoCT
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Re: Unlimited Polygons Technology is back

Post by PicassoCT »

voxel- every part of 3dspace is part of one giant grid, one point or voxel is one part of this giant array..

Also voxelstein is amazing...

Now i wil wait with final judgment on this once it comes out, but i think, compared to what other guys deliver as grafixengine with hard work- this is getting way to much noize.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF8A4bsfKH8
Last edited by PicassoCT on 03 Aug 2011, 22:42, edited 1 time in total.
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KaiserJ
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Re: Unlimited Polygons Technology is back

Post by KaiserJ »

a voxel is a section of volume within a 3d grid. minecraft has a landscape made up individual blocks in a 3d grid. the rendering method is miles different, yes, and yet this is the comparison that i'm trying to make here, because i've seen implementation of voxels with behavior similar to that of minecraft blocks in different engines and applications

i don't know much about the structure of level data between minecraft and (for example) voxelstien but you can see similar types of interactions between the elements of the map much as the way that sand falls and areas of blocks are removed with dynamite;
3d array != voxels
give me a bit of credit; i know the difference between bricks and a house. just trying to think outside of the (polygonal) box here
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smoth
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Re: Unlimited Polygons Technology is back

Post by smoth »

give me a bit of credit; i know the difference between bricks and a house. just trying to think outside of the (polygonal) box here.
we are talking the difference between bricks and a picture of a rock.
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Das Bruce
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Re: Unlimited Polygons Technology is back

Post by Das Bruce »

One of the problems I can see, especially noticable with the bird animation, is that close up the 'textures' appear aliased. Where as polygon based engines usually blend the colours.
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KaiserJ
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Re: Unlimited Polygons Technology is back

Post by KaiserJ »

smoth wrote:we are talking the difference between bricks and a picture of a rock.
what i'm trying to get at is that aside from a rendering method (polygon, voxel, finger paint) some polygonal games such as minecraft mimic the behavior of particles that i've seen in voxel games

stack rocks in a cube 10x10x10; stack bricks in a cube 10x10x10... regardless of the content or appearance, they both form a 3d array and can have similar properties and behaviors. whats the problem with that?
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rattle
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Re: Unlimited Polygons Technology is back

Post by rattle »

User was warned for this post.
CAUTION:
THREAD RATED R FOR MATURE CONTENT AND NOT SUITED FOR KIDS

KIDS:
STAB YOUR EYES BEFORE VIEWING THIS THREAD AND WASH THEM WITH SOAP AFTER

[Edit - Nobody needs to see that.]

Regarding the voxel polygon discussion, I don't know how advanced voxel animation is nowadays but it's been pretty static before. For example Tiberian Sun/RA2 had voxel models for their vehicles and fan made walkers and animations were pretty much simple rotations, anything more complex such as bipedal movement was kind of like 3D sprites, i.e. a series of voxels swapped.

On second thought there was Outcast in 1999 which had decently animated characters, so I might be talking bullshit.
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smoth
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Re: Unlimited Polygons Technology is back

Post by smoth »

sorry i broke the post : kaiser
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zwzsg
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Re: Unlimited Polygons Technology is back

Post by zwzsg »

Smoth, Kloot, Notch:

I read about some technology supposedly able to store a 1280x1204 picture in a 200 kb file. But if we count only one byte per pixels, which would be pretty low to store all the shades of hue/brightness/... that's already well over 1 000 000 bytes of data!

I say the Joint Photographic Experts Group claim is a scam!!!
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smoth
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Re: Unlimited Polygons Technology is back

Post by smoth »

You cannot get anything for free

Time<->overhead<->performance

choose 2.
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jK
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Re: Unlimited Polygons Technology is back

Post by jK »

rattle wrote:On second thought there was Outcast in 1999 which had decently animated characters, so I might be talking bullshit.
They used polygons/GPU for the models.
The GPU was just not flexible enough when Outcast came out. But with modern GPUs animation of voxels isn't as limited anymore (on the GPU it's not much different from vertex blending). And there is a lot progress/research of GPU-based voxel/point cloud rendering in the past 10 years.
Still triangles are faster and easier to use, so voxel rendering has less usage in games atm.
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Teutooni
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Re: Unlimited Polygons Technology is back

Post by Teutooni »

I guess they need to generate each object procedurally anyway (would be ridiculous amount of data to store otherwise). So animating the procedural model instead of raw point cloud chunks seems like a no-brainer. Plausible imo.

In any case, could be a nice engine for rendering 3D fractals. :D
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Sabutai
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Re: Unlimited Polygons Technology is back

Post by Sabutai »

Yeah right, why would one save every grain of dirt individually? Wouldn't one make 10 and copy paste them? Like dirtgrain_01 lies here: a b c and so on. The same goes with rocks and trees.

And as zwzsg says, why not combine it with an polygons: have a 3 points in space filled with soandso kind of voxels. That way you only need to store minimal amounts of data and you can do movement quite easily.

And why won't ATI or Nvidia invest in this? They make money selling gfx cards. Along comes a method to do it all better via software. They'd kill their business.
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smoth
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Re: Unlimited Polygons Technology is back

Post by smoth »

Sabutai wrote:Yeah right, why would one save every grain of dirt individually? Wouldn't one make 10 and copy paste them? Like dirtgrain_01 lies here: a b c and so on. The same goes with rocks and trees.
those "grains" of dirt were about 3-4inches across in those videos
Sabutai wrote:And as zwzsg says, why not combine it with an polygons: have a 3 points in space filled with soandso kind of voxels. That way you only need to store minimal amounts of data and you can do movement quite easily.
Many older games used voxels (see blood) along with polygonal data
Sabutai wrote:And why won't ATI or Nvidia invest in this? They make money selling gfx cards. Along comes a method to do it all better via software. They'd kill their business.
because it isn't worth it to them. I keep trying to tell people computers are not magic.

in laymans terms:

you will have 3 things

hardware overhead
poor performance
too expensive to develop

Developers choose between 2 of these 3 every day. They claim this method is unlimited in name but if you stop being enamored by their bullshit term you would realize in the first video this is very much gpu bound. Software rendering is that way. Which takes out the whole advantage of using a video card. Your video card is dedicated to rendering. By taking the cpu and forcing it to cover rendering as well you reduce the amount of power for the plethora of other calculations that will also need the cpu.

From the perspective of an artist:
The video goes on and on about the lack of soft visual data. How polygons have hard transitions between objects but that isn't always the case. That's all well and good but their approach loses something IMO much more valuable. hard edges. it is through the contrast of hard and soft that we get really good stuff. so I think in the future we would need to see a hybrid and frankly because voxels do NOT use a texture they would have to be much finer. well except for the retro style art because that is cool to some. However, for your halo, cod anything that is supposed to be actually good looking this stuff is useless.

that is why.
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