US Debt Ceiling - Page 3

US Debt Ceiling

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TheMightyOne
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Re: US Debt Ceiling

Post by TheMightyOne »

Gota wrote:
TheMightyOne wrote:...
Just give me one example?
You watched it 2 hours ago and you dont remember one thing out of all those many things that are untrue?
I mean you even googled it....
i'm sorry lol. hours = years.
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Hoi
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Re: US Debt Ceiling

Post by Hoi »

TheMightyOne wrote:
Hoi wrote:We have been deceived, assimilated and conditioned. Money and it's religion teach that humans are infinitely selfish, and will always fight to gain profit. That is what a corporation is, an entity that is infinitely selfish to gain as much "personal" profit - in the form of money.
Those are the principles our (capitalistical) economy is built upon. It is supposed to work that way. By doing whats in your interest the market allocated the goods and prices in such a way and every single participant gains profit. See "Invisible Hand" by Adam Smith.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_hand

This is the theory of course.
I am very aware of this. I know the theory, I know Adam Smith and many others.

That doesn't change the fact that it is an extremely bad system that is causing a lot of harm and might make our race extinct. I just didn't directly refer to it in my previous post to avoid getting labeled.
#1 nothing comes out of nowhere, like some of the interviewees said, everything is connected and everything is co-dependent.
How are you gonna completely change the system right now, what are the steps we must take starting from how it is now all the way to the final result?
Offer a plan of transition not just shout out about some dreamland end result...
They used a new blank earth to explain their vision but that's the problem, you cant just topple everything down and build something new without causing huge devastation ala bolshevik revolution(this time on a global scale?)...
Funny enough at the end that is exactly what is prophesized.
a brutal revolution where the "powers" try to hold on to their power in all available means...
This movie never says the system must be changed in 1 day. In fact the author of the venus project says that it will be a long process.

The thing we need to do now is not change this system immediately into what the movie describes. We need to get a system that has the good intentions again. Our system only has the intention of destroying, wasting, spreading corruption, killing and the like. This is what needs to be changed, and again, it's not going to happen in 10 minutes. It will take a bit of time.
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AF
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Re: US Debt Ceiling

Post by AF »

Just because you think the solution to the problem is nonsense, doesnt mean that automatically makes the problem a load of nonsense too.
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TheMightyOne
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Re: US Debt Ceiling

Post by TheMightyOne »

I dont think that *any* system invented by economists is aimed at "destroying, wasting or spreading corruption". You say "system" but what you actually mean is "people behind the system".

communism is a great idea and a great system if you want to put it that way, the problem is that its not suitable for people at all. same here, every system has actually good intentions but the people start to abuse the system cuz of greed, selfishness etc. we can change the system but we can not change the people, its in our nature. no matter what system we use people will abuse or find a way to work outside of the system.
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FLOZi
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Re: US Debt Ceiling

Post by FLOZi »

As if human nature is an indestructible, unchanging monolith since the dawn of time. :regret:
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Regret
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Re: US Debt Ceiling

Post by Regret »

TheMightyOne wrote:we can not change the people, its in our nature
This is an ignorant statement. The people you are describing as unimaginably diverse.
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TheMightyOne
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Re: US Debt Ceiling

Post by TheMightyOne »

Regret wrote:
TheMightyOne wrote:we can not change the people, its in our nature
This is an ignorant statement. The people you are describing as unimaginably diverse.
so are the people who are "in charge" and it happens so that every time there are some evil, selfish, ignorant bastards amongst them who ruin the fun for everybody.
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AF
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Re: US Debt Ceiling

Post by AF »

TheMightyOne wrote:
Regret wrote:
TheMightyOne wrote:we can not change the people, its in our nature
This is an ignorant statement. The people you are describing as unimaginably diverse.
so are the people who are "in charge" and it happens so that every time there are some evil, selfish, ignorant bastards amongst them who ruin the fun for everybody.

That happens when the leaders are chosen from a very small group of like minded individuals.
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Regret
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Re: US Debt Ceiling

Post by Regret »

TheMightyOne wrote:so are the people who are "in charge" and it happens so that every time there are some evil, selfish, ignorant bastards amongst them who ruin the fun for everybody.
I wouldn't call them ignorant. They did manage to get in charge.
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PicassoCT
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Re: US Debt Ceiling

Post by PicassoCT »

The reason why politicians can not be hold personal financiallly responsible for the debts they created, is often stated that if such a damocles swoard would hang over that job, nobody would take it, beside people with nothing to loose and people who could count on bribes later saving them.

but as things stand, responsibility is low this way too. Die- lema, die.
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TheMightyOne
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Re: US Debt Ceiling

Post by TheMightyOne »

AF wrote: That happens when the leaders are chosen from a very small group of like minded individuals.
what if we try to move away from that "1 man (+his team) in charge" system we've been living by. you get leaders in every group, and they have to be chosen its just a natural thing even if youre with your group of friends there is often this one guy who'll be "in charge" maybe its you but anyway maybe with the amount of people living in a country we cant really call it a "group" and the people we put in charge are too prone to use their position to their own benefits. This system might be outdated.

How about a leaderless, faceless community deciding on every step together. No names, no personal benefits, no salary. A goodwilled hive mind. Everybody has a voice. Isnt that what democracy was all about? We only needed representatives cuz we needed a voice. 10,000 people couldnt go to senate to fight for their rights so they chose 1 man to do it for them but with internet everybody has a voice, why the need for the man inbetween?

I'm aware its pretty much science fiction I'm just thinking out loud here.
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PicassoCT
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Re: US Debt Ceiling

Post by PicassoCT »

that would work, if everyone was equal. Its a really nice dream, a goal we might one day, a thousand years away might hit. But for now, we have a society that produces sociopaths craving for power, and if you look exactly, thats always the guy getting those leader jobs. Ruthless, good actors, and unable to learn, we chose the most criminal minded out of the possible crowd, cheer him to the top, and its only the well oiled mechanism of democracy that grinds those insane Incompetence to meaningless babble. I actually think this the greates benefit of democracy, not allowing some marchiavelli to play all his cards for to long.
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AF
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Re: US Debt Ceiling

Post by AF »

Because it would be horribly warped by voter apathy. People who voted would bd the minority who desperatly wanted the change, be that for religious, ideological, or self gain, not the silent majority who wanted it preserved.

So we force everyone to vote, suddenly we're confronted with lots and lots of votes upon which we have no prior knowledge to make informed decisions about.
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Gota
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Re: US Debt Ceiling

Post by Gota »

TheMightyOne wrote:
Gota wrote:
TheMightyOne wrote:...
Just give me one example?
You watched it 2 hours ago and you dont remember one thing out of all those many things that are untrue?
I mean you even googled it....
i'm sorry lol. hours = years.
Dude...sigh....
This video was uploaded to youtube on Jan 25, 2011 how did you see it 2 years ago...Focus man, this is a different film we are talking about...sigh
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TheMightyOne
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Re: US Debt Ceiling

Post by TheMightyOne »

Gota wrote: Dude...sigh....
This video was uploaded to youtube on Jan 25, 2011 how did you see it 2 years ago...Focus man, this is a different film we are talking about...sigh
No, we're not http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeitgeist:_The_Movie
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Hoi
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Re: US Debt Ceiling

Post by Hoi »

TheMightyOne wrote:
Gota wrote: Dude...sigh....
This video was uploaded to youtube on Jan 25, 2011 how did you see it 2 years ago...Focus man, this is a different film we are talking about...sigh
No, we're not http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeitgeist:_The_Movie
We're not talking about "zeitgeist: the movie", an old movie that is nowhere near the newer ones.

We're talking about "zeitgeist:moving forward", a movie that was released January 2011. It is completely and totally unrelated to #1 and does not have the craziness of #1. Watch it and learn.
Moving Forward wrote: Peter Joseph has stated that its topics are focused on human behavior, technology, and rationality.
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TheMightyOne
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Re: US Debt Ceiling

Post by TheMightyOne »

ooops
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AF
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Re: US Debt Ceiling

Post by AF »

Image

It's based on data from the Congressional Budget Office and the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities. Its significance is not partisan (who's "to blame" for the deficit) but intellectual. It demonstrates the utter incoherence of being very concerned about a structural federal deficit but ruling out of consideration the policy that was largest single contributor to that deficit, namely the Bush-era tax cuts.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/arc ... ng/242484/


Image
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PicassoCT
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Re: US Debt Ceiling

Post by PicassoCT »

would be nice to see, what would happen, if the democrats plumbers for once stopped to repair the done damage. Just say fuck you, we dont deliver a candidate for this election, and for the next. Wanna see you explaining why the states wallet is empty, wanna see you collecting the presents you made.


Everything coming to a sudden galt? ;)

But wait, history shows, that once they trapped themselves, fools like the republicans start wars to get a cheap way out of responsibilitys. So no way to nail them there either.
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Gota
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Re: US Debt Ceiling

Post by Gota »

How come the deficit is gonna drop so much soon and than rise again?
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