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US Debt Ceiling

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scifi
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Re: US Debt Ceiling

Post by scifi »

Phone response (small post) ;/

kaiser - lack of regulation all the way.

We cant regulate the market now, it wont let us do it, only if we fix this debt mess can we touch the market, and put in place the old safe guards.

Hoi -

Revolution is always a way, but imo its imposible to do a revolution today

Only way to reformulate the economy, in the long run, is if we fix this debt crysis, showing we can pay in the loong run, because there are countrys with economic growth, in europe germany is growing so...... well see.

After this financial madness is fixed, we need to look at a more just market, how do we do this, put back old safe-guards, and just plain regulate who is alowed to be in a free market area.
Countrys that dont abide by the rules of a free market area, shouldnt be alowed to sell theyr products, in europe or america. Slave factorys isnt a fair competition.

Economic growth, we dont have cheap oil anymore, nor raw materials for that matter, we dont have that economic boost. We cant have a huge steel industry anymore. We must reformulate everything, i think we can do it without chaging the middle class lifestyle too mutch. If we put our minds to it.
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KDR_11k
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Re: US Debt Ceiling

Post by KDR_11k »

AF wrote:The US doesnt deserve its AAA rating but its been allowed to keep it because it would be unprofitable for all involved to do so.
The rating is supposed to express the chance that you will get your investment back if you lend them money. I do think that just by its economic strength the US does deserve an AAA rating, only these political squabbles are even creating the chance that the US will default. Rightfully the US rating should be degraded until the parties can agree on something but the economic impact of even that move is so high that I guess the agencies weren't comfortable doing it when it's pretty sure that this game of chicken will not go bad.
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scifi
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Re: US Debt Ceiling

Post by scifi »

KDR_11k wrote:
AF wrote:The US doesnt deserve its AAA rating but its been allowed to keep it because it would be unprofitable for all involved to do so.
The rating is supposed to express the chance that you will get your investment back if you lend them money. I do think that just by its economic strength the US does deserve an AAA rating, only these political squabbles are even creating the chance that the US will default. Rightfully the US rating should be degraded until the parties can agree on something but the economic impact of even that move is so high that I guess the agencies weren't comfortable doing it when it's pretty sure that this game of chicken will not go bad.
In the end it will be raised, otherwise i doubt anyone would vote on the responsible for not raising the debt ceiling.
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Licho
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Re: US Debt Ceiling

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Dont forget debt or indeed entire monetary system - "money" is just a game concept on top of real world. It in itself has no meaning and no value. If whole world is in debt its just a failure in the "game", no the lack of resources or something halting the economy.

In that case the "game" should be fixed and improved.

Its like if you demanded WoW virtual coins for cutting a real tree but nobody in the world had the WoW coins because they are locked in some random bank account of uberrich guy - to which all people also owe coins - and you cannot add more coins into game because it would devaluate value of those stored in the account.

In the worst case you can always say - screw you money - and switch to inefficient central economy without money :)
In my country it took communists just 2 years to nationalize every company and switch consumer goods from money to "waiting lists".
Later they also simply erased personal savings (above certain value) - you can do all sorts of magic, if you have strong oppression control :)

So if SHTF I bet there will be lots of inventive ways to keep real economy running even if the "game" fails hard.
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scifi
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Re: US Debt Ceiling

Post by scifi »

either it be opressive or not opressive ;)
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Das Bruce
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Re: US Debt Ceiling

Post by Das Bruce »

So if they raise the debt ceiling, somebodies going to come along and think it's a safe investment then loan them money?
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Johannes
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Re: US Debt Ceiling

Post by Johannes »

Das Bruce wrote:So if they raise the debt ceiling, somebodies going to come along and think it's a safe investment then loan them money?
If the interest is right, sure why not?
Regret
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Re: US Debt Ceiling

Post by Regret »

Licho wrote:Dont forget debt or indeed entire monetary system - "money" is just a game concept on top of real world. It in itself has no meaning and no value. If whole world is in debt its just a failure in the "game", no the lack of resources or something halting the economy.

In that case the "game" should be fixed and improved.

Its like if you demanded WoW virtual coins for cutting a real tree but nobody in the world had the WoW coins because they are locked in some random bank account of uberrich guy - to which all people also owe coins - and you cannot add more coins into game because it would devaluate value of those stored in the account.

In the worst case you can always say - screw you money - and switch to inefficient central economy without money :)
In my country it took communists just 2 years to nationalize every company and switch consumer goods from money to "waiting lists".
Later they also simply erased personal savings (above certain value) - you can do all sorts of magic, if you have strong oppression control :)

So if SHTF I bet there will be lots of inventive ways to keep real economy running even if the "game" fails hard.
Are these ideas/words your own? As in, did you come to these conclusions or read/heard them somewhere. If the latter then please provide source, I would like to take a look at it too.

Specifically the "money = game" concept.
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Hoi
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Re: US Debt Ceiling

Post by Hoi »

Allocation of resources is severely hindered by the monetary system. What that means is not only that we are extremely inefficient with our natural resources, it also means that we have a lot of suffering, war and inequality. Like Licho said, money is just a game. A $100 bill is just a piece of paper and has no true value. You can not eat money, and you can not cure a diseases with it. The only reason it exists is because we needed it in the past, because it was better than bartering.

At this point, the money has become a game. The money can be manipulated, and this is what is happening on a huge scale. Manipulating the money means using complicated schemes which are essentially ponzi schemes, to fake the system and people into thinking more wealth can be created out of nothing. It's what inflation is basically, the money used to be backed with gold, but now it is not and this is the cause of inflation: manipulation of the game, manipulation of the money. This is simple theft, the upper class are the thieves and the mid and lower class (us) are the victims. The entire existence of interest could be labeled a ponzi scheme, and those result in full collapse and a "transfer" of in this case money from the mass (poor) to the few (rich).

We have been deceived, assimilated and conditioned. Money and it's religion teach that humans are infinitely selfish, and will always fight to gain profit. That is what a corporation is, an entity that is infinitely selfish to gain as much "personal" profit - in the form of money. It has totally stopped our positive social evolution, and instead has made many of us increasingly more violent, selfish, stupid and nearly all other bad things. It causes war, corruption, murder and so on.

This deception could be labeled as a part of the social evolution, but will in the future, if we survive, be seen as the greatest deception and destroyer ever. When we finally get rid of the thought that we need to fight, when we finally grow up and stop using money, the world will be a better place.
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FLOZi
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Re: US Debt Ceiling

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Licho
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Re: US Debt Ceiling

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smoth
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Re: US Debt Ceiling

Post by smoth »

-_- <- not a macro
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Forboding Angel
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Re: US Debt Ceiling

Post by Forboding Angel »

KaiserJ wrote: forboding your chart massively disproves your point; it shows a dramatic decrease in spending by the obama administration after a giant increase by bush; the future rise is projected. currently you are on the the way down.
Nope, that giant rise was in Bush's last year. Compare Obama's first year to bush's first year, and so on. Hopefully that clarifies things.
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Gota
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Re: US Debt Ceiling

Post by Gota »

Yeah...
Well i now know what will bring peace to the middle east ^^
Shit will get so bad people wont care about politics any more ^^
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TheMightyOne
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Re: US Debt Ceiling

Post by TheMightyOne »

Please dont refer to this movie as a viable "source" cuz there is so much bullshit there. The only good thing this movie does is give people a wake up call but lots of things mentioned there are just wild speculation and while fascinating they have no real evidence.
Hoi wrote:We have been deceived, assimilated and conditioned. Money and it's religion teach that humans are infinitely selfish, and will always fight to gain profit. That is what a corporation is, an entity that is infinitely selfish to gain as much "personal" profit - in the form of money.
Those are the principles our (capitalistical) economy is built upon. It is supposed to work that way. By doing whats in your interest the market allocated the goods and prices in such a way and every single participant gains profit. See "Invisible Hand" by Adam Smith.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_hand

This is the theory of course.
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Gota
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Re: US Debt Ceiling

Post by Gota »

As the US shows there can be no true capitalism, once the market gets monopolized duopolized etc.. and interest groups are formed government is immediately used to benefit those interest groups.
Look at the disparity in income in the US...Its a failed system for sure.

Maybe this Neo Marxism is the answer...
Who knows maybe the SSSR prophacies about the decline of the capitalistic west were true ;)

That video is fun and cool but The problem comes when it tries to offer an alternative ^^

#1 nothing comes out of nowhere, like some of the interviewees said, everything is connected and everything is co-dependent.
How are you gonna completely change the system right now, what are the steps we must take starting from how it is now all the way to the final result?
Offer a plan of transition not just shout out about some dreamland end result...
They used a new blank earth to explain their vision but that's the problem, you cant just topple everything down and build something new without causing huge devastation ala bolshevik revolution(this time on a global scale?)...
Funny enough at the end that is exactly what is prophesized.
a brutal revolution where the "powers" try to hold on to their power in all available means...

#2 This society the venus project, or whatever they are called,offers a new social order...
Who is gonna rule it?Who is gonna make decisions?Computers cant do it yet and not in the near future so who is gonna make all the decisions small and large both?
It's the red revolution all over again, protectionism,high positioned clerks will rule this society?

#3 many people on earth lack the education to even understand what the video is trying to say, let alone try to implement what it offers or even taking any active conscious part in this vision...

I suppose they are trying to say that making these videos is the first step towards this solution but what next?There is nothing concrete except for a few architectural designs...
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Gota
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Re: US Debt Ceiling

Post by Gota »

TheMightyOne wrote:
Please dont refer to this movie as a viable "source" cuz there is so much bullshit there. The only good thing this movie does is give people a wake up call but lots of things mentioned there are just wild speculation and while fascinating they have no real evidence.
Like what?
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TheMightyOne
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Re: US Debt Ceiling

Post by TheMightyOne »

Gota wrote:
TheMightyOne wrote:
Please dont refer to this movie as a viable "source" cuz there is so much bullshit there. The only good thing this movie does is give people a wake up call but lots of things mentioned there are just wild speculation and while fascinating they have no real evidence.
Like what?
A simple google search will answer your questions. I know it did for me. Ive watched it 2 years ago I think so I dont recall anything in particular.
Last edited by TheMightyOne on 23 Jul 2011, 16:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Licho
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Re: US Debt Ceiling

Post by Licho »

First half of the movie is pretty good imo
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Gota
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Re: US Debt Ceiling

Post by Gota »

TheMightyOne wrote:...
Just give me one example?
You watched it 2 hours ago and you dont remember one thing out of all those many things that are untrue?
I mean you even googled it....
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