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Wikileaks

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DragonSpawn
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Re: Wikileaks

Post by DragonSpawn »

Well I find it amusing that the wikileaks even show that Saudi Arabia was willing to allow Israel to go through it's airspace if it would go for a strike on Iran. This is Saudi Arabia we're talking about.

I guess everyone is just terrified of Iran becoming the dominant regional power and supplanting the Israel hegemony in the Near East. Even the Arabs prefer to deal with the devil they know (Israel) than deal with a potential monolith of a Persian Shi'ite theocracy.

However I honestly don't see how Iran won't become the dominant power in the region. By 2050 it is projected to have a population exceeding 105 million, compare this to the measly 5,7 million Jews in Israel.

Not to mention that any kind of war against Iran is very problematic at best and won't work. There is a reason why Israel is so hesitant to make the first move even with the threat of nuclear development in hostile hands over their head.

But then again I don't see it as so bad. In fact I think it's almost karma that Iran is winning the upper hand in the region. Serves the US right for ousting Mossadegh, instating a reviled dictator and the Iran-Iraq war instigation. Boy, did those events ever come to bite the US in the ass now decades later.
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Johannes
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Re: Wikileaks

Post by Johannes »

DragonSpawn wrote:Well I find it amusing that the wikileaks even show that Saudi Arabia was willing to allow Israel to go through it's airspace if it would go for a strike on Iran. This is Saudi Arabia we're talking about.
That was on the news months ago already though...
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Gota
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Re: Wikileaks

Post by Gota »

Well Jimi carter helping Khomeini and the current iraq war were probably both mistakes unless Iraq flourishes into a stable democracy all of a sudden.

The only thing Israel is doing atm(at least from the leaked documents) in Iran is trying to help the youth/democratic opposition to stage a coup which is probably way more effective and overall better than actually physically bombing the nuclear infrastructure.

Saudi arabia has always had bad relations with Iran...
This is not news the only thing that is news now is that its all out in the open.
Usually the only thing arab leaders say out in the open is that they dont like Israel cause thats a sure bet and will not cause any opposition :/.
Arab leaders prefer to move attention away from muslim to muslim conflicts and deal with them in private as it creates turmoil in their own countries that are all under oppressive monarchic or other totalitarian regimes.
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Teutooni
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Re: Wikileaks

Post by Teutooni »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11883567

Lol, wth.
The Red Notice does not amount to an arrest warrant. Instead, it asks people to contact the police if they have any information about his whereabouts.
I'd imagine he's already closely watched by several intelligence agencies, what the hell do they need civilians for? Timing seems a bit convenient too. :regret:
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FireStorm_
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Re: Wikileaks

Post by FireStorm_ »

Teutooni wrote:convenient
Even if only slightly true, i don't think one is going to believe these allegations while cablegate is still considered current news.

That someone tried this seems a testimony to his/her incompetence to me, what ever there position or goal.

Furthermore i think they'd like civilians be more fearfull :-) , and they need (some) civilian input to justify themselves.

But I guess it is more likely this behaviour provokes more anti-state behaviour.
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hoijui
Former Engine Dev
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Re: Wikileaks

Post by hoijui »

DragonSpawn wrote:Well I find it amusing that the wikileaks even show that Saudi Arabia was willing to allow Israel to go through it's airspace if it would go for a strike on Iran. This is Saudi Arabia we're talking about.
Saudi Arabia, the most pro US/pro west muslim country there is? the most pervert capitalistic guys in ... probably the world? taking only "the best" from the west, like letting others do the work, surgical enhancement of female flesh and skiing in the desert?
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Teutooni
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Re: Wikileaks

Post by Teutooni »

FireStorm_ wrote:Even if only slightly true
Oh I'd guess it's true. Someone, probably in the CIA, was ordered to dig up any dirt related to wikileaks as a panic measure to discredit the whole organisation. To me such response seems pathetic. Like a pair of children, one saying you stole my candy and the other responding you stole candy from me earlier. Ok, bad analogy... :( But that was my first impression.
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Forboding Angel
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Re: Wikileaks

Post by Forboding Angel »

Here's the real question. If putting out information like this causes the loss of life, then how are those that exposed the information any better?

Wikileaks is a neat idea, but handled by imbeciles, which makes it very dangerous. Moreover, they just managed to piss off the majority of the american public. Prolly not the best strategy for success, but only time will tell how it all plays out.

I too am quite sure that agents will be burned because of this. Taking a name out doesn't help much when you describe an incident. Intelligence agencies are pretty good at putting 1 and 1 together and coming out with 2.
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AF
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Re: Wikileaks

Post by AF »

More to the point, who died because of the previous releases that were 'guaranteed to cause loss of life'
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SpliFF
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Re: Wikileaks

Post by SpliFF »

Forboding Angel wrote:Here's the real question. If putting out information like this causes the loss of life, then how are those that exposed the information any better?

Wikileaks is a neat idea, but handled by imbeciles, which makes it very dangerous. Moreover, they just managed to piss off the majority of the american public. Prolly not the best strategy for success, but only time will tell how it all plays out.

I too am quite sure that agents will be burned because of this. Taking a name out doesn't help much when you describe an incident. Intelligence agencies are pretty good at putting 1 and 1 together and coming out with 2.
Wow... pure CNN spin rehashed into an opinion. Well done.
Comments like that are the reason nobody cares what the American public thinks... when they actually do any thinking that is.

Last I heard these cables come from a system where the number of US citizens with access numbers in the thousands or even millions. Since every major power in the world is going to have at least one mole in there it's beyond belief that anything trully dangerous would be sent through it. This stuff is embarrassing, not dangerous, and if any of it is dangerous it should never have been put in the system. Most of this stuff isn't even classified and none of it is "top secret".

Maybe your memory is just short, or non-existent, but the last leak that compromised actual spies came from the Whitehouse itself under the glorious leadership of your pal GW Bush. Funny how double standards go isn't it?

Guide us with your mighty wisdom, oh great Forb. How would you have appeased the American unwashed idiots while still ... you know... leaking stuff like it says in the Wikileaks charter? Of course Americans were going to get their feathers ruffled, the point is, nobody outside of the US cares! In fact we all think it's hilarious.

How can you call Wikileaks "imbeciles" when they're clearly running circles around the over-funded US agencies out for their blood? Has anyone from Wikileaks been arrested? Did the DDOS take them down? Have black-ops killed any Wikileaks members? By all accounts the score is Wikileaks 4 (collateral murder, iraq dossier, afghan war logs, cablegate), US 0 (unless you count their failed attempts at getting Julian arrested).

Wikileaks have also done a better job at PR than the US. The administrations' reaction to being publicly exposed as duplicitous and belligerent is simply to invent more lies and more threats. They come out claiming the release endangers lives and foreign relations then 5 seconds later they're talking about how the documents aren't really that important and not a true reflection of actual events or policy anyway. Fuck off they aren't. Everything that comes out of Washington talking heads just makes the whole scandal more believable.

What I see in all of this is that the US government are too used to having a tame media. If Wikileaks had been a US media outlet they'd be slapped down with a "national security letter" before they even opened their doors. The US got caught with its pants down. Tough shit. Suck it up and maybe learn something.
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zwzsg
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Re: Wikileaks

Post by zwzsg »

Forboding Angel wrote:Wikileaks is a neat idea, but handled by imbeciles, which makes it very dangerous.
What would be an intelligent way to handle wikileak? Ask the US intelligence service to screen the leaks? :lol:

Oh, but wikileaks tried that repeatadly, it's your gov that keeps refusing to cooperate!
Forboding Angel wrote:Moreover, they just managed to piss off the majority of the american public
[citation needed]
Not that I'd trust the opinion of the majority of american public anyway.
AF wrote:More to the point, who died because of the previous releases that were 'guaranteed to cause loss of life'
No one. They're actually careful about what ends up published.
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Pxtl
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Re: Wikileaks

Post by Pxtl »

Wasn't there a release that spilled the names of several Afghani informants?

Either way, as much as the news media is trying to paint them as villains they at least have vocal support among the blogosphere.... which doesn't count for much, but is a good reflection of younger politically-engaged folks.

The media seems completely confused how to handle them - on the one hand, they're a lot closer to "journalism" than the media has been for decades, and I'm sure a lot of young journalists are envious of these folks doing the job they always wanted to do - nasty, gritty exposures.

On the other hand, the media is dependant on the government and various other stakeholders for access, advertisement-based funding, ownership, etc. and have got to be under a lot of pressure to make WikiLeaks look bad.

And on the gripping hand, the media ownership doesn't want to do news, and so this must frustrate them. They want to talk about the Kardashians and the Palins and people like that. Having to cover CSIS and diplomatic cables and all that crap must drive them batty.
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Gota
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Re: Wikileaks

Post by Gota »

It's hard to hypothesize on the advantages and disadvantages of such leaks.
On one hand the US was embarrassed on the other hand it will make the US put more effort into securing its communications.

On the one hand such leaks allow us to better see if our representatives are true to what we want of them on the other hand some dealings especially with governments that are not democratic will not accomplish anything unless they are in closed doors.

On one hand such leaks allow democratic countries to pressure non democratic countries or dictators and disclose true intentions and actions which are not known or investigated in the oppressed countries over which these dictators reign.

On the other hand such leaks might also destabilize regimes and cause more violence and less negotiations.

One thing is for sure if these leaks are truly unintentional leaks they contribute to randomness and chaos and its hard to say whether it will bring positive or negative results every time some new information is disclosed.

One final note is the fact that the chances of getting leaked information from undemocratic countries seems much lower to me hence the ability to harm democratic countries is greater which sort of defeats the shared goal of bringing democracy and free press to all countries.
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zwzsg
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Re: Wikileaks

Post by zwzsg »

I wonder if they'll ever publish anything about Russia. And if they do, how long would wikileaks board members survive?
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SpliFF
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Re: Wikileaks

Post by SpliFF »

zwzsg wrote:I wonder if they'll ever publish anything about Russia. And if they do, how long would wikileaks board members survive?
I'd be very surprised if they haven't already. Before all this latest fuss there was a large collection of documents in other languages on the wikileaks site. It seems to have been moved to focus attention on the recent leaks.
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KingRaptor
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Re: Wikileaks

Post by KingRaptor »

The speculation going around in some circles that Assange is really a US/UK govt. employee disseminating their propaganda (e.g. against Iran) is...interesting.

EDIT: disclaimer: opinion not endorsed by this user
Last edited by KingRaptor on 01 Dec 2010, 17:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Pxtl
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Re: Wikileaks

Post by Pxtl »

zwzsg wrote:I wonder if they'll ever publish anything about Russia. And if they do, how long would wikileaks board members survive?
Depends. How long does Polonium-poisoning take to kill a man?
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Gota
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Re: Wikileaks

Post by Gota »

KingRaptor wrote:The speculation going around in some circles that Assange is really a US/UK govt. employee disseminating their propaganda (e.g. against Iran) is...interesting.
So why do it?
Has his life history been faked cause if you look at his past he isnt exactly the man for such a job?
Is he being pressured?
What reasonable arguments are there for such a hypothesis.

Perhaps a better argument would be that he is working on his own but being used unknowingly by the US/UK or any other group or government..
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Johannes
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Re: Wikileaks

Post by Johannes »

Gota wrote:
KingRaptor wrote:The speculation going around in some circles that Assange is really a US/UK govt. employee disseminating their propaganda (e.g. against Iran) is...interesting.
So why do it?
Has his life history been faked cause if you look at his past he isnt exactly the man for such a job?
Is he being pressured?
What reasonable arguments are there for such a hypothesis.

Perhaps a better argument would be that he is working on his own but being used unknowingly by the US/UK or any other group or government..
He's a zionist pawn clearly
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PicassoCT
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Re: Wikileaks

Post by PicassoCT »

I bet he got a sugarbread and whip offer, after wikileaks caused the first real damage - either you help us establish a anti-iran-coalition out in the open, with all those lousy allys in the middle east who never tell there true opinion, or you will get raped and charged for that.
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