Brain reading

[Gota]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40L3SGmcPDQ&feature=fvw

Very interesting...
if it will indeed prove to be powerful and useful(if not with first generation than with, later more advanced products) I wonder what would be the distance between it reading the brain and it effecting the brain.

[Hobo Joe]

This is so awesome, I can't wait till stuff like this is at consumer level. The possibilities are endless... :D



But at the same time, it's pretty scary. The potential for misuse is huge.

[Machete234]

So the next WoW can read if youre frustrated and then give you some super items to keep you hooked, great!

[hoijui]

they should have also shown an experienced user (or one that the system knows well). would be interesting how fast he could do stuff. could he play some 3D tetris at the same speed like with a mouse, or faster? (i bet not yet). are there biological/technical limits in the nature of the approach they use, speed wise? how much "resolution" could you possibly get with that technique?
can we use the players brain for path-finding?

[echoone]

they should have also shown an experienced user (or one that the system knows well). would be interesting how fast he could do stuff. could he play some 3D tetris at the same speed like with a mouse, or faster? (i bet not yet). are there biological/technical limits in the nature of the approach they use, speed wise? how much "resolution" could you possibly get with that technique?

Ya, I was wondering about that too. All of the actual game demo content was abstract stuff. It likely opens the door for new types of game play and interaction but I doubt its a quake interface.

can we use the players brain for path-finding?

Heh! First game, "You too can play as a rat in a maze! You'll be aMAZED at your ability to find cheese! Or confound your friends by playing as the cheese. Scare them with your blue cheese stink attack! But look out for the rat's invisible spring attack! Only four easy payments of $199.99."

[knorke]

why only use the brain for input?

can we use the players brain for path-finding?

think bigger.

how apart some cpu or gpu calculations are done on the players brain. humans use only ~95% of their brain anyway. might use it as hard drive too!
would not even need a screen as you could transmit the image directly into the brain... hey wait...

[Sucky_Lord]

I wonder what would be the distance between it reading the brain and it effecting the brain.

Unfortunately theres a massive step between brain output and brain input

[Licho]

Its old and it sux. None of such devices ever made it to consumer market. Who would want to wear electrodes and train it to respond much slower than you can click mouse or hit key.

It's useful for disabled people though.

[Hobo Joe]

Its old and it sux. None of such devices ever made it to consumer market. Who would want to wear electrodes and train it to respond much slower than you can click mouse or hit key.

It's useful for disabled people though.

It's developing obviously, things start out crappy and improve over time.

[Licho]

This is several decades old technology and there are physical limits of how well you can read brainwaves through scalp and what useful information you can actually get from them.

I'm not holding my breath here.

We don't have flying cars either, despite prototypes 60 years old.

[Machete234]

It seems to me more like a gimmick for you wii console or indeed for paralyised people to steer their weelchair.

They had these things in the 90's were they could allready move around in a jump and run game.

I dont think its lightening fast either, like you think left and bam it happens as soon as you thought it.
I think it might be rather exhausting to use this device.

[FireStorm_]

Even if the test subject is manipulating his world in one way or another, i doubt its is by means of direct 'mind control' (for lack of a better term)

It makes me think of this

look, some brainwaves. And if you have learned to read them you can tell if the wave represents a lie, right?
No. That is not how it works and thats why i don't buy this 'mind control' stuff.

[echoone]

Even if the test subject is manipulating his world in one way or another, i doubt its is by means of direct 'mind control' (for lack of a better term)

It makes me think of this

look, some brainwaves. And if you have learned to read them you can tell if the wave represents a lie, right?
No. That is not how it works and thats why i don't buy this 'mind control' stuff.

Technically you are not reading brainwaves with a polygraaf. You are actually reading and interpreting autonomic response. Thusly, if you believe your lie to be true, the polygraph says you're not deceptive. This is also why, when testing, they work hard to create stresses for providing less favorable responses; as the response indicators are likely to show a higher deviation. Of course, too much stress messes with the baseline.

Simply being extremely confident can be enough to provide indeterminate analysis. Other tricks can actually allow for incorrect results. Sociopaths and psychopaths can frequently pass a polygraph and/or at least provide for indeterminate analysis. And this all ignores the fact that questions can be gamed to obtained a preferred response.

There are absolutely good reasons why polygraph should never be admissible in any legal proceeding.

Of course, true brain scanning/reading lie detection continues to be developed. But even Myth Busters have shown the brain can be trained to evade detection by simply focusing and/or thinking of something other than what is being asked. And that can help with a polygraph too.

[FireStorm_]

Perhaps i shouldn't have brought up the polygraaf, (although i would like to say that i think it was more used for the effect of the machine on the person, instead of the person effecting the machine.)
I mentioned it because i thought the 'mind control' device might pick up and use the same kind of signals a polygraaf does.

But it is not really an example of human-machine-interface.
However, this guy is such an example: www.kevinwarwick.com

He made me think you literally have to go al little deeper to be able to pick up relevant signals for this kind of stuff.

I'm not disputing that the test subject is interfacing with the laptop in front of him. But I don't buy what is claimed in the video, that the sci-fi tiara is picking up brainwaves.

[echoone]

I'm not disputing that the test subject is interfacing with the laptop in front of him. But I don't buy what is claimed in the video, that the sci-fi tiara is picking up brainwaves.

Really? I'm surprised since EKGs and EEGs have been around for a long time now. EEGs are at the heart of a lot of brain science. Notice the array of sensors worn by the EEG patient? The "sci-fi tiara" is basically the same thing, but with fewer sensors and in wireless form.

Humans very much function on the basis of biochemical, electrical, and even magnetic radiation. Sensors to detect much of this is easily within our technological capabilities. Its been proven that long term placement of a magnet on the head can directly affect brain chemistry.

Just our of curiosity, if you don't believe the tiara is sensing brain signals, how do you believe the user is interacting with the computer? Muscular voltage interface?

[hoijui]

:D :D
yeah.. like.. in the game, for it to work, you have to think like:
LEEEEEEEEFFT.. for like 3 seconds, then UUUUUUUP for 3 seconds, ...
so oyu spend a day gaming and then.. imagine how would that person talk the next day, or behave in traffic. :D
thats when gaming REALLY will get dangerous!

[FireStorm_]

EKGs and EEGs

you've got me there. (don't know enough atm, i'm afraid.)

Its been proven that long term placement of a magnet on the head can directly affect brain chemistry.

That, as far as i know, just paralyses an area or hemisphere, allowing other area's or other hemisphere to become more active.

Just our of curiosity, if you don't believe the tiara is sensing brain signals, how do you believe the user is interacting with the computer? Muscular interface?

If he was doing it at all. Ever manipulated a gamecontroler beleving you were playing but were actually waching a demo? (I've been that stupid, perhaps thats why i need to be sceptical.)

But if he was, then Yes. like i said, other things might be picked up.

A polygraph (popularly referred to as a lie detector) is an instrument that measures and records several physiological indices such as blood pressure, pulse, respiration, breathing rhythms/ratios, and skin conductivity

And twitching of muscles is another one.

I'm still sceptical. But atm i feel i have to do some more reading before i could continue defending my point, (or possibly accepting the claims made in the video.)

[t0rb3n]

Ever manipulated a gamecontroler beleving you were playing but were actually waching a demo?

I always want to zoom and scroll while watching spring videos...

[Panda]

I'm not disputing that the test subject is interfacing with the laptop in front of him. But I don't buy what is claimed in the video, that the sci-fi tiara is picking up brainwaves.

Really? I'm surprised since EKGs and EEGs have been around for a long time now. EEGs are at the heart of a lot of brain science. Notice the array of sensors worn by the EEG patient? The "sci-fi tiara" is basically the same thing, but with fewer sensors and in wireless form.

Humans very much function on the basis of biochemical, electrical, and even magnetic radiation. Sensors to detect much of this is easily within our technological capabilities. Its been proven that long term placement of a magnet on the head can directly affect brain chemistry.

Just our of curiosity, if you don't believe the tiara is sensing brain signals, how do you believe the user is interacting with the computer? Muscular interface?

Even if the tiara is interacting (indirectly) with signals that are coming from the brain, I doubt that it can pick up on precisely what you're thinking. There are things out there like this:

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.02/warwick.html

where a chip is put into someone's arm and that chip would send out radio signals to open doors etc., but I don't that technology similar to this or future technology that could take it a step further and allow for signals to be sent to and from the brain would work out that well for the human population as a whole. I'm skeptical of that because each person is in a way in their own environment that possesses it's own time and space. That's why things like EEGs can only tell you certain things like whether or not you have epilepsy. I don't like the idea of a computer chip being deeply integrated into my nervous system either.

[echoone]

I'm not disputing that the test subject is interfacing with the laptop in front of him. But I don't buy what is claimed in the video, that the sci-fi tiara is picking up brainwaves.

Really? I'm surprised since EKGs and EEGs have been around for a long time now. EEGs are at the heart of a lot of brain science. Notice the array of sensors worn by the EEG patient? The "sci-fi tiara" is basically the same thing, but with fewer sensors and in wireless form.

Humans very much function on the basis of biochemical, electrical, and even magnetic radiation. Sensors to detect much of this is easily within our technological capabilities. Its been proven that long term placement of a magnet on the head can directly affect brain chemistry.

Just our of curiosity, if you don't believe the tiara is sensing brain signals, how do you believe the user is interacting with the computer? Muscular interface?

Even if the tiara is interacting (indirectly) with signals that are coming from the brain, I doubt that it can pick up on precisely what you're thinking. There are things out there like this:

Generally they don't detect "precisely what you're thinking." The technology is based on pattern recognition and training (discovery of that pattern). So when a pattern of x, y, z, ... from sensors a, b, c, ... are detected, it can infer a specific cognitive function is taking place because of the action specific training involved. In this case, that generalized cognitive function is, "think rotate a direction" or an abstract of, "disappear".

With a little practice and the right equipment, you can actually learn to focus and control some of your brain waves. IIRC, theta waves are one such example. This is typically done via a feedback loop between you, a device which displays a value, and a sensor connected to your head.

I personally believe what they demoed is real. Stuff like this have been in R&D labs for a very long time. The major hurdle has always been available computing power for training and recognition, and consumer price point for the sensor array. The computing power is very likely available now in consumer homes. IMOHO, really the only claim they need to prove is that they can produce a reliable sensor array, which does not require contact gel+direct skin expoure, at a reasonable, consumer price point. They claim they have. We'll see.

And twitching of muscles is another one.

Some prosthetics work off of this muscular/nerve/voltage detection. That's what I was referring to as, "muscular", in my previous post.