Starcraft 2

[AF]

It had to be released when I have no money! =(

[Google_Frog]

I got it. I like Blizzard campaigns, I like 1v1 and have received a few good reviews. I figure there is little not to like.

[Petah]

Got it yesterday, play a game with my work mates, owned them. Played online a few times, got owned.

Yea I agree the is a basically a revamped SC 1, but look how successful SC 1 was, why change anything.

Still I prefer Spring game play and features.

[Hobo Joe]

Yea I agree the is a basically a revamped SC 1, but look how successful SC 1 was, why change anything.

Yes, look how successful SC1 was. Why remake it?

[Regret]

Yes, look how successful SC1 was. Why remake it?

Chess.

[JohannesH]

They changed a ton compared to scbw
even too much maybe?

[Forboding Angel]

The important part is that it still FEELS like the original game.

[1v0ry_k1ng]

will get this next week 100%

[SwiftSpear]

Is it just me, or does Starcraft II's macro feel like it takes a lot more micro than the previous game? As I play Starcraft II I'm reminded of why I loved TA so much in the first place... Instead of clicking "Build Marine" every 30 seconds for the entire game, I could just put factory on repeat.

Depends, they actually have shift rally points in the game now, which decreases some micro, but they added an extra micro required macromanagement feature to each race, mules, chronoboost and larvae injection... So ya, I think it's a tiny bit more micromanagement required than BW had. Still, we're spoiled rotten playing spring.

Still, there isn't a spring game with nearly the design and unit interaction depth starcraft 2 has. Not by a longshot.

[Otherside]

SC2 micro is excessive the game tries to be hard on purpose. I dont feel like playing protoss or zerg specifically cos i need to keep on checking my queen to pump out larvae to stay on top in unit count and warp gates are a pita as you cant queue.

Also im not a huge fan of 1v1 and playing team games of sc2 its pointless cos in most games if you get rushed its insta gg. I prefer WC3 cos in team games if you get rushed you can fight back. The pace is slower and its not as micro intensive yet still rewarding if you got good micro.

So basically.

SC2 custom maps + campaign > WC3.

But for me WC3 ladder > SC2 Ladder. Guess if my micro was better id enjoy SC2 more but some of the micro/macro is just excessive.

[Forboding Angel]

Don't feel like massive posting but suffice it to say that the only reason the sc2 relationship that you refer to exists is because of the very limited unit choices.

Throw in upgrades, viola.

It isn't super deep. It's about as deep as chess really. It's entertaining, and a good game imo, but don't try to unintentionally make it more than it actually is

[JohannesH]

Is it just me, or does Starcraft II's macro feel like it takes a lot more micro than the previous game? As I play Starcraft II I'm reminded of why I loved TA so much in the first place... Instead of clicking "Build Marine" every 30 seconds for the entire game, I could just put factory on repeat.

Depends, they actually have shift rally points in the game now, which decreases some micro, but they added an extra micro required macromanagement feature to each race, mules, chronoboost and larvae injection... So ya, I think it's a tiny bit more micromanagement required than BW had. Still, we're spoiled rotten playing spring.

Still, there isn't a spring game with nearly the design and unit interaction depth starcraft 2 has. Not by a longshot.

SCBW is way more hard mechanically, than SC2. In SC2 you can group buildings together so you no longer have to click thru a dozen production facilities every time a round of units is done. And workers go mine automatically. You don't have to micro against the crazy BW pathfinder. You can select unlimited units. Casters can be selected as a group and the spells are queued, in BW you had to select each individually or they cast the spell in same spot.

Yes they added some things to still keep the game demanding, but its still easier.

And Spring games can be damn hard to manage well too, most ppl just dont realise this cause they only play teamgames on cramped maps :/ Giving orders to many different cons, keeping up scouting in several places, balancing e/bp as well as you can, and microing battles, really needs a ton of multitasking.

Unit interactions in are just more subtle in Spring than in SC I think... You don't necessarily have to have a very concious design to make a deep game, just have some complexity and players will figure it out.

Ive started playing a bit of SCBW btw... Its fun cause now that all the noobs have left for SC2, all your opponents on Iccup actually have some clue on how to play.

[Hobo Joe]

And Spring games can be damn hard to manage well too, most ppl just dont realise this cause they only play teamgames on cramped maps :/ Giving orders to many different cons, keeping up scouting in several places, balancing e/bp as well as you can, and microing battles, really needs a ton of multitasking.

Unit interactions in are just more subtle in Spring than in SC I think... You don't necessarily have to have a very concious design to make a deep game, just have some complexity and players will figure it out.

That's different though, that's straight up unit-micro, you're simply telling them where to go etc, the things that SHOULD have micro required. In SC2 there's lots of menial micro that shouldn't be required. Like, you can't queue anything on buildings that are under construction, and you can't queue units on a building that's doing research, and you have a limited queue size. In some ways it's better than SC1, but in other ways it's worse.

One of the things I've always loved about Spring is that it cuts away a very large portion of the menial micro and leaves you with the things that should be micro'd. It's got better queue's, especially on factories, better patrol, fight command, guard, units that attack while moving(ok admittedly that's a gameplay decision but STILL), ZOOM, line formations, etc. Things that help you avoid doing the things you only do because you have to, and let you focus more on the things you should be doing, like controlling your attack groups and scouts and cons.

[JohannesH]

Thats ridiculous... There's no silly definition of what SHOULD be microed or how. Those things you listed, are all gameplay decisions.

You're just defending the thing you're familiar with, as if it was somehow objectively better

[KaiserJ]

on the topic of gameplay comparison...

what would starcraft 2 be like with spring-style micro? better? worse?

[scifi]

on the topic of gameplay comparison...

what would starcraft 2 be like with spring-style micro? better? worse?

well now thats a hard question to awnser

starcraft II already has a whole set of diferent changes
1┬║ pathfinding
2┬║ multiple facs being able to be selected
3┬║ larger unit groups being able to be selected

only imediate diferences from spring like micro is in spring units move faster (ex: BA scouts), and dye faster, and you can expand and secure ground faster, and unit count is 10x more.

1v1 sake:
Spring micro evolves as controling expantion with cons, and protecting them, the same time as you make scouts trying to rape enemy eco, this is already very diferent from sc2. Both games evolve in eco rape, and fast expantions, but in spring expantions are weaker, and the amount of units use is just 10x more, and not to mention you can porc an llt.

Regarthing 2v2 up to 4v4 e.t.c.:
Here the diferences just show themselves up, spring in terms of team games really own anything starcraft can trow at it to be honest IN EARLY GAME TEAM PLAY.
examples:
1┬║Suport eco
2┬║joint lab starts
3┬║eco division, expand fast while i make some energy
4┬║ i rush scouts while you expand
5┬║ rush atlas porc a choke
6┬║ even com dgun enemy base
7┬║ rush a t2 if map alows it.
8┬║ more overall strategic

In starcraft II team games evolve prety mutch the same regarthing early game, though mid late game is more interesting as unit choices get more varied and counters more specific, rushing colossus, air to pwn overlords the list gets on and on............
One example of this is you must always get a spawning pool or a barracks, gateway to reach higher tier unitsl, you cant just rely on your ally to make a tier 2 and share it to you, and there you go your happy with new tier units.

Both games are diferent, i couldnt see spring micro in SC, only if starcraft had more open maps, lesser build time in units, and less choke points you could see any form of TA, springlike micro.

Awnsering to your question kaiser, woud be an utopic idea, mixing TA and SC, but!! would be near imposible to balance sutch diferent play styles.

[Gota]

One of the biggest and often overlooked points is the different style of maps...

[Hobo Joe]

One of the biggest and often overlooked points is the different style of maps...

Something which SC greatly lacks... map variety. But I guess with an archaic town hall/resource system you have to stick to dumb ways of doing things.

[JohannesH]

They have to have less diverse maps cause theres 3 different factions that need to be balanced

[Gota]

Not every single map must be balanced for all 3 races...