I wish to utter a complain

I wish to utter a complain

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PicassoCT
Journeywar Developer & Mapper
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Joined: 24 Jan 2006, 21:12

I wish to utter a complain

Post by PicassoCT »

.. no, not really, more sort of a question. Is it just because of humans not beeing capable of real multitasking, that in any RTS, batteling units have to come to a sort of stand-still? I can understand that Art& Snipers have to hold it, while they aim and fire, but as far as i ever understood, a infantry-charge or a tank-battle is something highly dynamic, yet in most of the rts, it ends up with tank formations standing still like pre-historic infantry regiments, loading there muzzlefed riffles , and even more riddicolous - infantry cowering down (not flankin, no crawlin, no circlin or simply circumventin the enemy (weak unit binds, while strong unit disengages for damage behind enemy lines). What can not be announced as reason for this is realism. Not, after WoW┬▓, the only excuse could be WOW1, which was except from the atmosphere, in tactical terms boring. So why is it, the way it is? Dont come along with dawn of war, were Units just become locked in CloseCombat, which is just another way of sayin, STALEMATE. Is it because human brainz weakness, and no UI to work around? Because of lack of CPU-Performance? I just wish to know the reason, thats all. Thank you for your time, Citizen.
Edible
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Joined: 09 Feb 2008, 01:46

Re: I wish to utter a complain

Post by Edible »

Because maps are fucktiny, ranges are fucktiny, players have masses more information, and dont have to follow standard rules/procedures of engagement, we are fighting with troops not people,

Also worth noting that 9/10 of skirmishes in ww2 would have been people taking pot shots at eachother from different buildings/hedges/things.

We will know we have a realistic RTS when only 1/10 of a sides soldiers die in a day of gaming at worst.

TLDR: Playability and fun > realism
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Mav
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Re: I wish to utter a complain

Post by Mav »

The reason this exists is because of the way HP and damage work in RTS games.

In real life, pretty much everything is one-shot, one-kill. Tanks kill each other in single shots with their sabot rounds. Usually, a 3-round burst from an assault rifle will kill someone. Aircraft are almost always shot down with a single missile. This is what leads to the fast-paced, forward charging assaults seen in modern warfare, especially since most modern warfare has been the US and its supremely superior weapons vs. outdated equipment. The US blows through with its tanks and air raids while the infantry ride in personnel carriers until they have to fight in populated areas.

The one-shot, one-kill scenario isn't fun in RTS games. We enjoy watching units shoot each other (and take damage) before they die.
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KDR_11k
Game Developer
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Re: I wish to utter a complain

Post by KDR_11k »

Also in real life engagement ranges are so long that most shots miss.
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knorke
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Re: I wish to utter a complain

Post by knorke »

imo not true. only thing like this in *a spring would be missle units lines, for the most part there is alot of kiting, going back and forth etc.
even in starcraft (units can not move while firing) you hardly have units just standing there shooting at each other. berzerkers rush in to kill siegetanks, zerglings dodge psi sturms blabla.
standing units shooting at each others only happens when boths players spammed a "mainbattletank" style of units. For example china vs china and both players made lots of those normals tanks. But thats the players fault, a few rockettroopers would be more effective and the battle less stall.
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Mav
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Re: I wish to utter a complain

Post by Mav »

knorke wrote:imo not true. only thing like this in *a spring would be missle units lines, for the most part there is alot of kiting, going back and forth etc.
Eh, these are still more-or-less "stationary lines". Yes, they may move back and forth a bit, but they still conform to the "line your units up and shoot each other" mentality. People playing like this typically don't charge forward until most, or all, of the enemies are dead.
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PicassoCT
Journeywar Developer & Mapper
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Re: I wish to utter a complain

Post by PicassoCT »

Those games who ironically have battlefields who can dissolve into partly chaos, tend to make gamespeed very,very slow, usual they are in medieval scenarios with charging cavalary, those charges blowing troopformations into pieces, but still, the question is why. There is certainly a technical difficulty in pulling it off, because your troops become parttime autonomous, after all they have to flank, use weak parts in there formations, surround, bottle up, hell, there could be even situations were giving an order might make things worser.
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Hobo Joe
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Re: I wish to utter a complain

Post by Hobo Joe »

You're making generalizations about RTS games that hardly even apply to the one who's forum you're posting on?

Have you *ever* watched a BA game? Sure, some people just sit in lines and shoot at each other, but that's almost always a certain type of unit. Often times the best tactic is to get your units into the midst of the enemy, or if you have the speed advantage, rush through their front line and go for the most sensitive targets.


PicassoCT wrote: worser.
lol
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Teutooni
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Re: I wish to utter a complain

Post by Teutooni »

PicassoCT wrote:Is it just because of humans not beeing capable of real multitasking, that in any RTS, batteling units have to come to a sort of stand-still?
That's because people tend to play maps with chokepoints and many allies to cover your flanks. Large maps with wide front lines are more dynamic.
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PicassoCT
Journeywar Developer & Mapper
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Re: I wish to utter a complain

Post by PicassoCT »

Teutooni wrote:
PicassoCT wrote:Is it just because of humans not beeing capable of real multitasking, that in any RTS, batteling units have to come to a sort of stand-still?
That's because people tend to play maps with chokepoints and many allies to cover your flanks. Large maps with wide front lines are more dynamic.
thx, so its the mappers fault creating to many siege maps.
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zwzsg
Kernel Panic Co-Developer
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Re: I wish to utter a complain

Post by zwzsg »

No, it's the players fault for playing on siege maps. Mappers make all kind of maps. Players still stick to DSD.
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JohannesH
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Re: I wish to utter a complain

Post by JohannesH »

Its mostly a case of playing badly than just sticking to bad maps
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Pxtl
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Re: I wish to utter a complain

Post by Pxtl »

zwzsg wrote:No, it's the players fault for playing on siege maps. Mappers make all kind of maps. Players still stick to DSD.
Let's face it: most Spring mods are just too hard for the vast majority of players to handle both the unit-manoevering and eco gameplay at the same time. Of course there are some players that can do it, but they're in the minority. The majority simply can't handle the frantic pace of multitasking needed for a 2v2 CCR game in 90% of Spring mods, _especially_ not in BA.
pintle
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Re: I wish to utter a complain

Post by pintle »

Needs moar Painted 1v1
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1v0ry_k1ng
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Re: I wish to utter a complain

Post by 1v0ry_k1ng »

Pxtl wrote: Let's face it: most Spring mods are just too hard for the vast majority of players to handle both the unit-manoevering and eco gameplay at the same time.
lets face it: most spring players are morons, 13 or have that condition common to new players where they get anxiety from raiding, being attacked, losing quickly or any kind of action besides a slow stalemate that ends when someone pulls out a superweapon
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Pxtl
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Re: I wish to utter a complain

Post by Pxtl »

@1vory - hey, I'm just explaining why there aren't more players on offensive maps. If you're going to have a game that caters to a particularly hardcore kind of gameplay, don't be shocked when people stick to maps that circumvent that gameplay.

The most popular maps have always been spectacularly defensive - the popularity of SpeedMetal has as much to do with its single-choke and neutral space for air-screening as it does with its metal and speedboost.

Remember how much time and effort goes to planning and building a base in BA, and how little scouting information players usually have. Is it any wonder that playing offensively is a psychological barrier for a lot of players? You're asking them to abandon their hard work to plunge into the unknown. Obviously it's the right way to play, but it _is_ a psychological barrier.
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RogerN
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Re: I wish to utter a complain

Post by RogerN »

Lines of units are efficient. They allow you to bring all your units into firing range at approximately the same time, so that your army is working together rather than as individuals or small groups. This is true even in modern warfare.

Static lines of defense (and offense) can also be the result of crowded maps. Playing 8v8 DSD, for example, there's no point trying to flank the enemy team or sneak up on them - the entire map is too quickly covered in units such that there are no gaps to squeeze through.

Finally, in larger games, static lines are also the result of player laziness and failure to work as a team. Oftentimes a coordinated massing of units followed by a charge could lead to victory, but players are too preoccupied with defending their own front lines to make it work.
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Pxtl
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Re: I wish to utter a complain

Post by Pxtl »

@ RogerN

The thing with DSD is that the massed attack often works right up until the big ramp. Then you slog up the hill while the enemies pump out Sumpies that capitalize on the high-ground advantage of the slope. Then you have the big dry seabed, but the porc remains and it's a long slog until one side puts together a late-game solution.
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JohannesH
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Re: I wish to utter a complain

Post by JohannesH »

Pxtl wrote:Remember how much time and effort goes to planning and building a base in BA, and how little scouting information players usually have. Is it any wonder that playing offensively is a psychological barrier for a lot of players? You're asking them to abandon their hard work to plunge into the unknown. Obviously it's the right way to play, but it _is_ a psychological barrier.
Plunging into the unknown is not a good way to play, scouting is. In a pub game it doesn't matter as much though, since if you invest to scouting your teammates are still retards who pay no attention to the intel you just gathered
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Teutooni
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Re: I wish to utter a complain

Post by Teutooni »

If units can effectively cover the whole width of the map game becomes a stalemate. Only when enemy is forced to use mobile units and intrecepting to cover larger area do the battles become dynamic. Scouting is one thing, but I find it far more effective and fun to maintain constant pressure on the enemy. That way you constantly have a fair idea of his forces. Porcing ruins this, forcing both players to cut contact and tech/mass an army (and scout).
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