Curious - Page 4

Curious

Post just about everything that isn't directly related to Spring here!

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
1v0ry_k1ng
Posts: 4656
Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 10:24

Re: Curious

Post by 1v0ry_k1ng »

Christianity is no better than Islam, just in the west, atheism and democracy have removed religious groups from power.

When the country was still ran by religion we had The CRUSADES, where Christians went to distant lands to kill non-believers. We had inquisitions, corrupt church levies and taxes, stoning, burning heretics alive, declaring war on excommunicated nations... just about every bad thing the Muslims have except the Burka. Christianity was no more tolerant of bad mouthing in the early modern ages than Islam is now.

The only reason Islam is getting such bad press is because their societies havenÔÇÖt evolved to the point where religion loses its capital powers. Once religion becomes a personal choice instead of compulsory, and ceases to effect government decisions, laws and criminology- and once they develop democracy and free speech- religion will lose its power there just like everywhere else and the extremist nations will begin to embrace sanity.

In my opinion, religious people should never be in power. Religion is by its very nature a bad attribute in a leader. It means said leader will believes in something that cannot be proven by logic, which in turn means their ability to reason objectively is flawed. It also means that their decision making will be subject to the arbitrary values of their religion, and they will pursue religious objectives.
0 x

User avatar
TradeMark
Posts: 4867
Joined: 17 Feb 2006, 15:58

Re: Curious

Post by TradeMark »

Raghna wrote:Of course, I understand they're being angry and all, and if I'd be born in that country and indoctrinated with such thoughts, I would probably be too
I agree, brainwashing is never good, and it should be stopped. Making all religions illegal would be the best choice.
Raghna wrote:, but we can't give in to them, just like a parent can't give in to his child crying because it wants that toy he saw on television.
I feel the same... they are just kids who cry for their toy. We cant give up. Or we end up like in that one movie... and what happened? the computer took over the world and we were just puppets doing that what he told us to do, following his new rules, and we prayed for salvation for the mistakes we did. Do you want that to happen to your kids? Do you?? Oh wwait, thats pretty much what all religions are about... 8)
0 x

User avatar
1v0ry_k1ng
Posts: 4656
Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 10:24

Re: Curious

Post by 1v0ry_k1ng »

TradeMark wrote:Making all religions illegal would be the best choice.
JC Denton & Hellios agreed
0 x

User avatar
Jazcash
Posts: 5302
Joined: 08 Dec 2007, 17:39

Re: Curious

Post by Jazcash »

Look if a person is to be a true Muslim by following the Qu'ran, they must kill non-believers and treat women unequally. If a person is to be a true Christian and follow the Bible, they would be against homosexuality and against generally accepted immoralities such as killing, theft and other obvious wrong doings.

If you're saying that Christians and Muslims are alike, you need to do a bit of reading.
0 x

User avatar
Forboding Angel
Evolution RTS Developer
Posts: 14636
Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43

Re: Curious

Post by Forboding Angel »

Athiests have the issue of not being bound by morals at all if they so choose. There is no good better best scenario here and the final test relies on the person himself, religious or not, whether his is or can be corrupted.

I would go so far as to say that believing in nothing leaves the individual in question more open to lack of morals and corruption than believing in something would.
0 x

User avatar
Jazcash
Posts: 5302
Joined: 08 Dec 2007, 17:39

Re: Curious

Post by Jazcash »

Forboding Angel wrote: I would go so far as to say that believing in nothing leaves the individual in question more open to lack of morals and corruption than believing in something would.
Exactly. Without religion, the world would most certainly not be a better place as the majority of religions teach "good", "humane" and "healthy" morals.
0 x

User avatar
Otherside
Posts: 2296
Joined: 21 Feb 2006, 14:09

Re: Curious

Post by Otherside »

Im not narrowminded at all.

And i know the vast majority of islamics are not crazy fanatics.

The same as the vast majority of christians are not pedophiles.

My main problems are religions rules/laws conflicting with modern laws. Freedom of speech and other things are a liberty everyone should have.

Religion should hold no weight on the law (or as little as possible) in the West this is the case but in other areas (Islam) it is not.

I find religon retarded mainly due to there rules/laws and the fairy tales the majority are based on. The extremists just piss me off even more.

I would like to think for myself rather than follow some outdated rules made thousands of years ago k thx. Praying every day isnt going to make me a better person.

And if i want to read good fantasy instead of picking up the bible(insert other religious text here)I will read lord of the rings or something.
0 x

User avatar
Peet
Malcontent
Posts: 4382
Joined: 27 Feb 2006, 22:04

Re: Curious

Post by Peet »

Peet wrote:
Otherside wrote:Islam is full of crazy fanatics
Otherside wrote:Christianity is lolsome the Pope has to spend most of his time covering up allegations of child abuse from sex starved priests.
Otherside wrote:in general they feel they are better than everyone else and use the holocaust as a guilt trip.
You are really fond of stereotypes and absurd generalizations. The average muslim is not going to blow himself up in a crowded area, the average catholic is not going to touch little boys, and jews are not arrogant guiltmongers. You are a victim of modern alarmism and narrowmindedness.
I would just like to expand on myself without editing and disrupting the flow of the thread. These attitudes are something I have found to be irritatingly prevalent lately, particularly among the internet-using demographics. This is not a form of open mindedness or free thinking. This is succumbing to the opinionation of the loudest and most radical voices that are usually perceived by an unreligious individual to be a wholesome alternative belief system to justify their nonparticipance in the concept of a religion. Being unreligious myself, I certainly identify with that desire to be distanced from that whole system. However, this does not mean that religious people are bad, or are doing bad things to society. The extreme few should not get to tarnish the reputation of the whole. Participance in an abrahamic religion does not drive a person into the above ill attitudes, there are dozens of other cultural, environmental and personal factors that create the sort of people you are accusing the average religious individual of being.
Jazcash wrote:Look if a person is to be a true Muslim by following the Qu'ran, they must kill non-believers and treat women unequally. If a person is to be a true Christian and follow the Bible, they would be against homosexuality and against generally accepted immoralities such as killing, theft and other obvious wrong doings.
I believe you may be glossing over a few sections of the bible, particularly in the old testament. I suggest you do some more reading yourself.
Jazcash wrote:Exactly. Without religion, the world would most certainly not be a better place as the majority of religions teach "good", "humane" and "healthy" morals.
Your primary implication here is that morality (and inherited/learned societal morality) cannot exist without religion.
Otherside wrote:My main problems are religions rules/laws conflicting with modern laws. Freedom of speech and other things are a liberty everyone should have.
Alright, this is a pretty acceptable point of view.
Otherside wrote:Religion should hold no weight on the law (or as little as possible) in the West this is the case but in other areas (Islam) it is not.
I would blame the relevant governments and societies for this, not the religion.
Otherside wrote:I find religon retarded mainly due to there rules/laws and the fairy tales the majority are based on.
I would like you to consider one of the primary purposes of religion - satisfying the basic human need for spiritual interaction. Abrahamic religions achieve this via faith and piety, and the "fairy tales" are the necessary tool to do that. I don't really think the question of whether the means justify the end is really any of our business. Other religions use different methods, this does not make them better, simply different. Unreligious people achieve it through other means or remain unsatisfied in that aspect.
Last edited by Peet on 20 May 2010, 21:44, edited 1 time in total.
0 x

User avatar
Teutooni
Posts: 717
Joined: 01 Dec 2007, 17:21

Re: Curious

Post by Teutooni »

zwzsg wrote:3 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God.
I was raised to think jealousy was a very bad trait. When I was told the God I should revere as the creator, whose very essence was unfathomable, could be jealous, of all things, I was dismayed. Seriously, if you stop to think for a moment, why would a being of unlimited power who could erase the entire universe and create a dozen new ones with impunity be so petty he would punish poor misguided souls for not believing in him? All the basic premises in christianity and islam seem, to me at least, obviously made up by human minds. :?
Foreboding Angle wrote:I would go so far as to say that believing in nothing leaves the individual in question more open to lack of morals and corruption than believing in something would.
Well morals and ideals can be taught without religion. Without such guidance, you are obviously vulnerable, but religions are just few options for sets of values.
0 x

User avatar
1v0ry_k1ng
Posts: 4656
Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 10:24

Re: Curious

Post by 1v0ry_k1ng »

Jazcash wrote:Look if a person is to be a true Muslim by following the Qu'ran, they must kill non-believers and treat women unequally. If a person is to be a true Christian and follow the Bible, they would be against homosexuality and against generally accepted immoralities such as killing, theft and other obvious wrong doings.

If you're saying that Christians and Muslims are alike, you need to do a bit of reading.
The Bible and treating women unequally:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_bibl.htm
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 requires that a virgin woman who has been raped must marry her attacker, no matter what her feelings are towards the rapist. "If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife...."
The Bible and Killing non-beleivers
http://www.evilbible.com/BiblicalIntolerance.htm
If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
the bible is indefensible.
0 x

User avatar
Forboding Angel
Evolution RTS Developer
Posts: 14636
Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43

Re: Curious

Post by Forboding Angel »

Teutooni wrote:
Foreboding Angle wrote:I would go so far as to say that believing in nothing leaves the individual in question more open to lack of morals and corruption than believing in something would.
Well morals and ideals can be taught without religion. Without such guidance, you are obviously vulnerable, but religions are just options for sets of values.
ufail@name.pun :lol:

This is true, but look at the state of many (in not most) atheists. There is cause for concern.

As far as atheists are concerned, they do not have to answer to a higher power at any point for any of their actions. Protestant Christians believe that every deed will be judged via book of the lamb. As a result, there is incentive to do no evil (barring unintentional) whereas with an atheist there is not. That's a pretty huge gap.
0 x

User avatar
Forboding Angel
Evolution RTS Developer
Posts: 14636
Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43

Re: Curious

Post by Forboding Angel »

1v0ry_k1ng wrote: The Bible and Killing non-beleivers
http://www.evilbible.com/BiblicalIntolerance.htm
If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
the bible is indefensible.
Old Testament. lern2bible
0 x

User avatar
1v0ry_k1ng
Posts: 4656
Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 10:24

Re: Curious

Post by 1v0ry_k1ng »

erm, does that remotely effect its legitimacy as the word of God? or as a docment of Christianity? no
0 x

User avatar
Jazcash
Posts: 5302
Joined: 08 Dec 2007, 17:39

Re: Curious

Post by Jazcash »

Some religions can seem more inflicting than others. Islam spreads and evolves with force. Christianity is simply making others aware of it and knowledgeable about it. A lot of people may choose to become Islam but an awful lot of people are forced to become Islam in the modern world to avoid death. Nowhere in the world will you find Christianity being forced upon others. Simply evangelised.

Therefore whether you like Christianity or not, it doesn't affect atheists as they can simply ignore it.

Fun fact:
200 million Christians living with persecution (threat of imprisonment, violence etc), and a further 400 million living with non-trivial deprivations of liberty (discrimination, restrictions etc)
Most persecution against Christianity comes from Islam as Muslims are simply doing of what is asked of them in the Qu'ran. So why don't the Christians fight back and use violence as well? Because Christians are simply doing of what is asked of them in the Bible.

As stated, most people of faith aren't extreme at all and are labelled because of the way stereotyping works. However, if you simply consider the people who live by the text, you'll see that Islam comes out a lot more immoral than Christianity does. And when I say Christianity I mean Christianity by the Bible. Not Catholicism. I do not believe in a "pope" along with many many other things Catholicism teaches.
0 x

User avatar
Otherside
Posts: 2296
Joined: 21 Feb 2006, 14:09

Re: Curious

Post by Otherside »

An athiest should abide by the law and follow his own good judgement.

The chances of an athiest being an asswipe compared to a christian is about equal its more to do with the person. You also need to take into account the people who are asswipes cos of there religion so it should even out.

You dont need a God to be a good person. Following laws is more than good enough.
0 x

User avatar
Peet
Malcontent
Posts: 4382
Joined: 27 Feb 2006, 22:04

Re: Curious

Post by Peet »

1v0ry_k1ng wrote:evilbible.com
It might be pertinent for the participants of this debate to attempt to utilize unbiased sources.
Forboding Angel wrote:This is true, but look at the state of many (in not most) atheists. There is cause for concern.

As far as atheists are concerned, they do not have to answer to a higher power at any point for any of their actions. Protestant Christians believe that every deed will be judged via book of the lamb. As a result, there is incentive to do no evil (barring unintentional) whereas with an atheist there is not. That's a pretty huge gap.
Pretty blatant use of a generalizing weasel word there. I highly doubt "many" atheists have no incentive to internalize our basic societal morality structures.
Forboding Angel wrote:Old Testament. lern2bible
I've been to services of at least 6 different christian denominations, both catholic and protestant, and I would estimate there was at least a 50% emphasis on the teachings of the old testament overall. You cannot seriously claim that the old testament is irrelevant to modern christianity.
Jazcash wrote:Some religions can seem more inflicting than others. Islam spreads and evolves with force. Christianity is simply making others aware of it and knowledgeable about it. A lot of people may choose to become Islam but an awful lot of people are forced to become Islam in the modern world to avoid death. Nowhere in the world will you find Christianity being forced upon others. Simply evangelised.
I've seen a good bit of this attitude in "pushy" christians. Indoctrination is indoctrination, whether the tool used are threats of force or threats of damnation.
0 x

User avatar
Sucky_Lord
Posts: 531
Joined: 22 Aug 2008, 16:29

Re: Curious

Post by Sucky_Lord »

Jazcash wrote:Look if a person is to be a true Muslim by following the Qu'ran, they must kill non-believers and treat women unequally. If a person is to be a true Christian and follow the Bible, they would be against homosexuality and against generally accepted immoralities such as killing, theft and other obvious wrong doings.

If you're saying that Christians and Muslims are alike, you need to do a bit of reading.
ÔÇ£The Lord will send on you curses, confusion, and frustration in all that you undertake to do, until you are destroyed and perish quickly on account of the evil of your deeds, because you have forsaken me. The Lord will make the pestilence stick to you until he has consumed you off the land that you are entering to take possession of it. The Lord will strike you with wasting disease and with fever, inflammation and fiery heat, and with drought and with blight and with mildew. They shall pursue you until you perish. And the heavens over your head shall be bronze, and the earth under you shall be iron. The Lord will make the rain of your land powder. From heaven dust shall come down on you until you are destroyed.

"The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You shall go out one way against them and flee seven ways before them. And you shall be a horror to all the kingdoms of the earth. And your dead body shall be food for all birds of the air and for the beasts of the earth, and there shall be no one to frighten them away. The Lord will strike you with the boils of Egypt, and with tumors and scabs and itch, of which you cannot be healed. The Lord will strike you with madness and blindness and confusion of mind, and you shall grope at noonday, as the blind grope in darkness, and you shall not prosper in your ways. And you shall be only oppressed and robbed continually, and there shall be no one to help you. You shall betroth a wife, but another man shall ravish her" Deuteronomy 28: 20-30

To be honest jaz, quit spewing your "im so knowledgeable" bullshit when you clearly know nothing about your religion, and are naively happy to follow these teachings.
Last edited by Sucky_Lord on 20 May 2010, 21:55, edited 1 time in total.
0 x

User avatar
KaiserJ
Community Representative
Posts: 3113
Joined: 08 Sep 2008, 22:59

Re: Curious

Post by KaiserJ »

Jazcash wrote:Look if a person is to be a true Muslim by following the Qu'ran, they must kill non-believers and treat women unequally. If a person is to be a true Christian and follow the Bible, they would be against homosexuality and against generally accepted immoralities such as killing, theft and other obvious wrong doings.
so basically you're saying that "true christians" and "true muslims" both need to follow their respective texts literally? entitled to your opinion of course but i feel like there would be MANY christians and muslims who don't follow the literal interpretation of their scripture and yet would still refer to themselves as true to the faith.

i'm not meaning to attack your faith and beliefs by this statement, i'm just saying that "true" religion of any type is subject to the interpretation of the person experiencing it.
If you're saying that Christians and Muslims are alike, you need to do a bit of reading.
i would like to address your points, and find some similarities.

homosexuality
muslims - not allowed "When a man mounts another man, the throne of God shakes."
christians - not allowed You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."

killing / converting non believers
muslims - yes (i feel this is covered quite extensively earlier in the thread)
christians - yes (same with this)

treatment of women / equality between genders
muslims - not allowed to own property or acquire education
christians - not allowed (quote from paul :"It is not permitted to a woman to speak in church. Neither may she teach, baptize, offer, nor claim for herself any function proper to a man, least of all the sacerdotal office")

killing / mistreating / stealing from your fellow man
muslims - not allowed
christians - not allowed

from my opinion, if you discount the actual events concerning said religions and global events as well as the unequal development of the eastern and western worlds and focus solely on the literal interpretations of the teachings of both religions, there is very little to divide the two
JC Denton & Hellios agreed
rofl

i put more faith in deus ex to teach morality than i do to either the bible or the quran. if i ever start my church, it will be based on this.
0 x

User avatar
Jazcash
Posts: 5302
Joined: 08 Dec 2007, 17:39

Re: Curious

Post by Jazcash »

I see no point in continuing with this unless people realise that the old testament is before the birth of Jesus Christ which is before he "died for our sins". That's when morality was set in stone.

You know, in the Old Testament, it states that the only people who could be Christians were Jews. In fact, it states countless things which the New Testament teaches against.

All the quotes of the Bible in this thread are from the Old Testament and are quoted without any context at all. If you could find some New Testament quotes, that would be great. Thanks.
Last edited by Jazcash on 20 May 2010, 22:02, edited 1 time in total.
0 x

User avatar
Licho
Zero-K Developer
Posts: 3803
Joined: 19 May 2006, 19:13

Re: Curious

Post by Licho »

Forboding Angel wrote: I would go so far as to say that believing in nothing leaves the individual in question more open to lack of morals and corruption than believing in something would.
Prove this. There is no correlation. It seems to me that atheistic countries actually have lower crime rates.

Compare for example
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EU_belief_in_god.png
with
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... urder_rate
0 x

Post Reply

Return to “Off Topic Discussion”