Curious - Page 14

Curious

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Sucky_Lord
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Re: Curious

Post by Sucky_Lord » 22 May 2010, 01:12

Let me just try to sum up your religion jaz:

You think to be a christian, you must believe in God and Jesus as the saviour.
"A true Christian is somebody who has accepted God into their life and truly believes that Jesus died to save everybody's sins"

Yet you then state:
"I do believe in God." Which suggests by your previous quote, you are a christian.

Furthermore stating the reason for your belief in God, and proving your christianity
"There is no one foundation for my belief of God. Many things lead me to believe in him. Some physical, some historical, some physiological, some theological."

You then suggest a reason as to why you're not a christian:
"The only reason I am not a Christian is because I am too weak to live by it's morals. I have tried but at my age, it's just too hard for me to achieve. I hope that perhaps one day I'll have the courage to truly accept Christianity into my life."
(which is obviously contradictory to your previous definition)
(and furthermore, to have this as a reason for not following an all-forgiving, infinitely passionate God seems utterly redundant)

You then redefine christianity
"being Christian is a choice. If I say I'm not a Christian then I'm not."

Now you attempt to sum up God's teachings and the infinite afterlife in 2 sentences.
"Here's my clear cut equation. If you're a Christian, you're going to heaven, if you're not, you're going to hell."

Yet the God you believe in and want to follow is all-forgiving and caring.
"Asking for forgiveness is another attribute of being a Christian."

But, you once again contradict the word of your saviour deity
"You're either a Christian or you're not. You cannot be in-between."

We dont even need to debate with you, you utterly contradict and destroy your own arguments and beliefs.
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TradeMark
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Re: Curious

Post by TradeMark » 22 May 2010, 01:26

Sucky_Lord wrote:you utterly contradict and destroy your own arguments and beliefs.
= true christian
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JohannesH
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Re: Curious

Post by JohannesH » 22 May 2010, 02:34

There's still 1 open question for me... Do gay dolphins get to dolphin heaven after they die?
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Pxtl
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Re: Curious

Post by Pxtl » 22 May 2010, 03:01

Jazcash wrote:
Pxtl wrote:@Jazcash - do you realize that many atheists were once church-going folk, or live with and care about church going Christians? Your detractors are every bit as familiar with doctrine as they need to be. My wife is a devout Anglican.
I don't suppose you've ever told her you think God's an asshole and that her faith is just some silly fantasy to ease her lonliness?
Your version of God is an asshole. Hers isn't. And she knows my opinion on religion, just as I know hers. We disagree. That's okay with us.
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SwiftSpear
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Re: Curious

Post by SwiftSpear » 22 May 2010, 04:08

JohannesH wrote:There's still 1 open question for me... Do gay dolphins get to dolphin heaven after they die?
It depends if they choose to be gay, or if it's just a life long condition they struggle against.
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Raghna
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Re: Curious

Post by Raghna » 22 May 2010, 07:56

TradeMark wrote:
Sucky_Lord wrote:you utterly contradict and destroy your own arguments and beliefs.
= true christian
I lol'd.

No disrespect towards Jazcash intended tho.
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Jazcash
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Re: Curious

Post by Jazcash » 22 May 2010, 10:23

Pxtl wrote:
Jazcash wrote:
Pxtl wrote:@Jazcash - do you realize that many atheists were once church-going folk, or live with and care about church going Christians? Your detractors are every bit as familiar with doctrine as they need to be. My wife is a devout Anglican.
I don't suppose you've ever told her you think God's an asshole and that her faith is just some silly fantasy to ease her lonliness?
Your version of God is an asshole. Hers isn't. And she knows my opinion on religion, just as I know hers. We disagree. That's okay with us.
So she believes everybody goes to heaven? Regardless of belief? What's the point in being a Christian then?

Sucky you're just being an idiot. I would respond to your every point but there isn't much point in that itself because you just ignore most of what I say and take bits and bobs out of context.
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Sucky_Lord
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Re: Curious

Post by Sucky_Lord » 22 May 2010, 11:26

Jazcash wrote:I would respond to your every point but there isn't much point in that itself because you just ignore most of what I say and take bits and bobs out of context.
Could you just point out exactly which part of that was taken out of context?
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Jazcash
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Re: Curious

Post by Jazcash » 22 May 2010, 11:43

Sucky_Lord wrote:
Jazcash wrote:I would respond to your every point but there isn't much point in that itself because you just ignore most of what I say and take bits and bobs out of context.
Could you just point out exactly which part of that was taken out of context?
You're quoting bits of what I said you must be/do to be a Christian. Not the whole thing.

I haven't accepted Jesus into my life and I do not attempt to live by the Christian way. There's some other reasons why I'm not a Christian.

Stop thinking that a theist is a Christian.
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Sucky_Lord
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Re: Curious

Post by Sucky_Lord » 22 May 2010, 12:08

Jazcash wrote:Stop thinking that a theist is a Christian.
You repeatedly define christian, and explain how you fulfil the criteria, then claim not to be a christian.

Im just saying Im starting to get confused by all your contradictions.
Jazcash wrote:I haven't accepted Jesus into my life and I do not attempt to live by the Christian way. There's some other reasons why I'm not a Christian.
Jazcash wrote:The only reason I am not a Christian is because I am too weak to live by it's morals.
You havent accepted Jesus into your life, yet you profess a strong belief in God.
Jazcash wrote:There is no one foundation for my belief of God. Many things lead me to believe in him. Some physical, some historical, some physiological, some theological.
Despite God being Jesus..?

You claim there's only one reason for your lack of religion, but next day list another 2 and claim there are
Jazcash wrote:some other reasons
Why the sudden change of mind?

Look, if i'm missing something here, please let me know.
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Jazcash
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Re: Curious

Post by Jazcash » 22 May 2010, 12:34

That's what I mean when I say I haven't accepted Jesus into my life. I mean I am too weak to live by Christian morals at the moment and so I cannot accept Jesus into my life.

Ok so there's one or two more reasons why I'm not a Christian. I was thinking very generally at the time and so gave the biggest reason.

Sorry for confusing you.

Edit: I can see where else you're getting confused. You think that by me saying I haven't accepted Jesus/God into my life that I don't believe in him. That's totally not what I mean at all.
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SirArtturi
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Re: Curious

Post by SirArtturi » 22 May 2010, 12:41

Jazcash why is it so difficult to understand that your believe in what true or not true or something between christianity is not what defines being christian in common or in social perspective. You or church defining true believe is called orthodoxy and believe of certain people while some people consider themselves as christians in other terms. Someone might even define themselves as christians just because they are members of the parish. Or jew might still consider himself as a jew even though he finds judaism and the dogma more than questionable. Or sunnites think they are true muslims while shias think that sunnites are bunch of infidel wackos. Or I myself as a part of evangelic lutherian congreation while I still dont believe in their god - to say it a bit harsh or problematic. (Some might say that im an agnostic but I dont know how to define my worldview while I still consider myself as christian)

I repeat myself: Being something in this context we are discussing is how the person himself defines himself, not how you define. That is completely other question that needs to be done inside the religion and in other debate.
To be more concrete: We cant say that a muslims are only what extremists are, do, say, believe or feel but muslims are all those who consider themselves as muslims: Sunnites, shias, sufis, wahhabites, extremist, traditionalist, whatever etc...

So admit that your struggle here to save your face by arguing what true believe is totally unrelevant and pointless.
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JohannesH
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Re: Curious

Post by JohannesH » 22 May 2010, 12:48

Believing in christian god but not following him? What's your plan in life then Jaz... Have fun now, repent after a while, then make it to heaven? Sooo smart!
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Jazcash
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Re: Curious

Post by Jazcash » 22 May 2010, 13:03

SirArtturi wrote:Jazcash why is it so difficult to understand that your believe in what true or not true or something between christianity is not what defines being christian in common or in social perspective.
Sorry if what I've said was unclear. My beliefs are my beliefs, in no way am I saying every Christian believes what I believe. But what I can say is that most people who call themselves Christian's believe in Creation, not evolution. There are however some who don't believe in Satan but do believe in God, and some people who don't believe that Jesus was the son of God. I am not one of these people.

The views I portray in this thread are not representative of all Christian's, they are merely my own beliefs.


My own personal view of a Christian is somebody who justifies their actions using the Bible. That is also my view of a Muslim. Somebody who can justify what they do or do not do by what the Qu'ran states.
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momfreeek
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Re: Curious

Post by momfreeek » 22 May 2010, 14:03

Jazcash wrote:But what I can say is that most people who call themselves Christian's believe in Creation, not evolution.
I call bullshit. Most christians in UK are educated enough to realise that science is the study of things to get at the truth: the study of gods creations. If god created everything then he created evolution. If god knows everything then he knew how things would evolve. Where is the conflict?

You really think genesis is literal and he created the world in 7 days? Are dinosaur bones a red herring; a trick played by god on us? You believe he gave you eyes.. and he created everything you see. Denying what your eyes see in gods name is ludicrous.
Last edited by momfreeek on 22 May 2010, 14:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Jazcash
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Re: Curious

Post by Jazcash » 22 May 2010, 14:10

momfreeek wrote:
Jazcash wrote:But what I can say is that most people who call themselves Christian's believe in Creation, not evolution.
I call bullshit. Most christians in UK are educated enough to realise that science is the study of things to get at the truth: the study of gods creations. If god created everything then he created evolution: where is the conflict?

You really think genesis is literal and he created the world in 7 days? Are dinosaur bones a red herring; a trick played by god on us?
So you're saying that most Christians believe in evolution? Seriously, one of the core elements of a Christian is the belief of creation. I'm talking about people who accept themselves as a Christian and label themselves as one. Not people whose birth certificate says Christian as that's a different use of the word altogether.
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momfreeek
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Re: Curious

Post by momfreeek » 22 May 2010, 14:14

Of course they do. Where is the conflict? Why creation OR evolution. Why can he not create evolution? Many scientists are christian. Newton was a fervent christian, he just wanted to understnd gods creations. I'm not sure, but go find out if Darwin was christian.

Believing what a priest/minister says about the origin of things over what someone who has given his life to study such things says is ridiculous.
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Teutooni
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Re: Curious

Post by Teutooni » 22 May 2010, 14:17

Jazcash wrote:My own personal view of a Christian is somebody who justifies their actions using the Bible.
Woah, glad you are not a christian then!

Else you could first kill all of us who tried to sway your belief, then your family members who do not believe and lastly seek out cities where foreign gods are worshiped and kill all the people there, their livestock, burn it and make sure it could never be built again (A-bomb? :P). [Deut 13]

Apparently, bible encourages to kill misbehaving children too, as a warning to others. [Deut 21:18-21]

(love that book, so fucked up its entertaining)

I'm glad the Holy Bible is such a prime example of love, tolerance and human rights.
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Sucky_Lord
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Re: Curious

Post by Sucky_Lord » 22 May 2010, 14:23

The LORD will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him. 21 The LORD will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess. 22 The LORD will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish. 23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron. 24 The LORD will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed.

25 The LORD will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth. 26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 The LORD will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The LORD will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind.
Deuteronomy 28: 20-28

You will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the LORD your God has given you. 54 Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, 55 and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating.
Deuteronomy 28: 53-56


God is telling us to eat our own children; of course he is a kind, loving, infinitely compassionate, caring saviour
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Jazcash
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Re: Curious

Post by Jazcash » 22 May 2010, 14:28

momfreeek wrote:Of course they do. Where is the conflict? Why creation OR evolution. Why can he not create evolution? Many scientists are christian. Newton was a fervent christian, he just wanted to understnd gods creations. I'm not sure, but go find out if Darwin was christian.

Believing what a priest/minister says about the origin of things over what someone who has given his life to study such things says is ridiculous.
Wrong again. Newton was a theist, not a Christian. And yes, many scientists are Christian's, also a lot are Christian's with the same beliefs as me. Look up John Lennox, there's some fantastic debates with him and Richard Dawkin's about big questions as are asked in this thread.

Darwin wasn't a Christian either. He didn't believe in the Christian God, he believed in an ultimate power for a substantial part of his life. From what I've read, he initially was a Christian but he eventually left Christianity.

Believing what a priest/minister says about the origin of things over what someone who has given his life to study such things says is ridiculous.
Many Christian's also give their whole lives to study why they believe what they believe.
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