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Curious

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Big Take
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Re: Curious

Post by Big Take » 21 May 2010, 02:00

Jazcash wrote:Very well.
momfreeek wrote:Is it a sin to NOT stone adulterers?


No.

Reason: It is not a sin to not take violent action. If you had said "Is it a sin to stone adulterers?", my answer would be yes.
Please elaborate
Jazcash wrote:
momfreeek wrote:Is it a sin to screw another man?
Yes.

Justification:

Romans 1:26-32, "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."

1 Corinthians 6:9-11, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

1 Timothy 1:9-10, "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;"

2 Peter 2:6, "And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;"

Jude 7, "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."
Thank you. It's rare to see someone who can actually pull up scripture to justify that one, and knowing the basis of such belief is useful to meaningful debate in the future, though I won't re-engage with you on this topic now.
Jazcash wrote:
momfreeek wrote:Is it a sin to persecute/criminalise someone else who screws another man?
Yes. It is a sin to persecute anybody for any reason. Who are we to judge? I believe that if that person deserves justice, then it would be dealt to him after their time is up.
So we should close all prisons? Surely all those rapists and murderers will get what's coming to them in the afterlife, yes?

Alright, now I'd like to engage with you on a topic we discussed earlier. How is singling out one group as a whole and subjecting them to scrutiny and malice for the actions of a few of their members NOT persecution?
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Big Take
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Re: Curious

Post by Big Take » 21 May 2010, 02:02

While we're at it, Jazcash, how closely do your beliefs on charity mesh with the Christian scriptures and how much time, money, and effort do you put into charitable endeavors to that end?
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Jazcash
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Re: Curious

Post by Jazcash » 21 May 2010, 02:09

Big Take wrote:While we're at it, Jazcash, how closely do your beliefs on charity mesh with the Christian scriptures and how much time, money, and effort do you put into charitable endeavors to that end?
I don't usually relate the two. My own opinion at the moment is that charities are more destructive than they are good, as well as their intention is.

It's getting late so I'll make this quick before I'm off. You give a child pocket money. Lets say this is the only money he will get until he's 18. Let's also for this case, assume he has to live from this money. He becomes dependant upon this money and does not bother to earn himself money as he doesn't need to. Eventually, he turns 18 and he has no pocket money any more. He realises he can't live because he has no idea how to earn money otherwise and he can't cope and dies. :cry:

What I'm trying to say is that instead of spoon feeding third world countries we should be helping to create them a supportive and stable society where they can become self sufficient and provide for their own. I would like to elaborate more on this and other things but it's 1:10AM here atm so I'm off :P

Maybe I'll explain some more tomorrow.
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bobthedinosaur
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Re: Curious

Post by bobthedinosaur » 21 May 2010, 02:17

I've notice a ton of commercialized Muslim bashing recently. I wonder if there is some profit in a us VS them..... Anyways, I don't have anything against any religion (as long as it is civil and not close minded), but I can't stand extremists. And you can be what ever religion you want or no religion at all, but once you start acting like troll or a biggot you support another form of extremism.
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Hobo Joe
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Re: Curious

Post by Hobo Joe » 21 May 2010, 02:18

KaiserJ wrote:i'm just saddened by all of this

all of us on this forum have a lot in common; we're all intelligent, we all come from civilized countries, and share a lot of interests and skills.

and yet its still very difficult to bend our minds to other peoples viewpoints, if even to understand them and not agree with them (goes for all of us i guess, me included)

/brb digging fallout shelter

:cry:
If it makes you feel any better, we're way better at this than almost all of the rest of the internet.

To have a 100+ post thread discussing religion without turning into a flamewar is a miracle. To be honest I'm actually quite pleased with the results. It's really interesting to hear other peoples viewpoints and beliefs.


@Jazcash - Hang in there :D

Seriously though, it's really interesting hearing your perspective, you sound like me in a lot of ways.

I grew up Christian and basically accepted it without thinking for the most part for the first 15-16 years of my life. Now I'm kind of in between, not really sure what I think or want to believe. A lot of it has stuck with me, pretty ingrained into my mind, other parts I don't really want to accept, or simply don't have the moral fortitude to live by. Part of me wants to live that life, and part of me doesn't, and right now I'm in an uncomfortable in-between place. Who knows where life will take me next.
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Sucky_Lord
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Re: Curious

Post by Sucky_Lord » 21 May 2010, 02:19

Jazcash wrote:I don't usually relate the two. My own opinion at the moment is that charities are more destructive than they are good, as well as their intention is.
Yes, pretend the things in the world around you arent real. Did you mention your child who is dependant on pocket money will starve without the money, and he wont have an 18th birthday because he is stuck at the age of 8?
Once again, a shit analogy that merely suggests you have a great understanding of the world around you, whereas really you simply make up excuses to continue living your life as it is, ignoring everyone else that is suffering.
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Hobo Joe
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Re: Curious

Post by Hobo Joe » 21 May 2010, 02:29

Sucky_Lord wrote:you simply make up excuses to continue living your life as it is, ignoring everyone else that is suffering.
I'm pretty sure that applies to nearly everyone in a first-world country to some extent.
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momfreeek
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Re: Curious

Post by momfreeek » 21 May 2010, 02:34

@jaz
Your answers make sense. But if its wrong to persecute/criminalise gays how can you use the bible to justify your support of a political party that would do just that? It is their cross to bear and not your job to judge their actions.
Jazcash wrote:What I'm trying to say is that instead of spoon feeding third world countries we should be helping to create them a supportive and stable society where they can become self sufficient and provide for their own.
There are plenty of charities that do this sort of thing, promoting development in third world countries. You would be able to find and support them.

The stuff you see a lot of on tv is disaster relief. If people are starving all you can do is send them food. There's no point helping them grow food if they are going to die tommorrow.
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Gota
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Re: Curious

Post by Gota » 21 May 2010, 02:38

Hobo Joe wrote:where life will take me
I can tell you that...to the grave,to rot.

@artturi
I do not think drawing Muhammad pictures is good or bad(well personally i enjoy it a bit since in parallel with respecting ones right to believe in a god i don't understand how one can be so stupid and lacking the introspective ability necessary to cast religion aside).
I see it as a response to the extreme reactions by the religious Muslim nutcases.
Christians feel threatened atheists feel threatened and this is the response.

There were similar cases with Christianity a few decades ago.
Hell there was an uproar just now with dawkins's poppy book.
threatening lives and attempting to kill people for painting Mohamed
is wrong.

A few months ago,in the us,they caught a woman that was recruiting Muslims on the net to go and assassinate the one who painted mohamed...
You are talking about hurting someone feelings?you mistake is that you think these people think like you and you base your opinion and reaction on that.

I am suppose to be a Jew if someone was to paint Moses fucking a camel
I would feel a bit uneasy since the insult is also meant for me even though i don't believe.. however...I will not try to murder the painter or threaten his life...
If i do,feel free to have a paint Moses day as well..

@jaz
Your reasoning about god is proper for your age....
The fact we don't know what caused the big bang does not prove we are watched by some imaginary friend who sent a messenger or several of them to teach us his will ...i mean come on...this argument breaks down immediately..
I wonder what will happen when they do discover what caused the big bang...than your belief will change again to adjust just like the church did many times.

Religion has always pushed god where science has not reached yet.
first we were on a flat earth and god was in the sky..than we were round and the center of the universe than we were spinning around something as oppose to everything spinning around us,than we discovered we are actually at the outskirts of a completely meaningless galaxy and there are millions like ours.
I recently heard a debate between a priest that became an atheist and a Muslim religious scholar.
guess where the Muslim scholar places god now?in another dimension..
God is transcendental and is beyond our reality all together...well fuck me...i thought he was in the sky zapping our asses with lightning...

Also the problem of Christianity and Islam is that the followers need to spread the word..this causes all these religious nutcases to try and force their shit on others...
Last edited by Gota on 21 May 2010, 03:04, edited 7 times in total.
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Raghna
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Re: Curious

Post by Raghna » 21 May 2010, 02:39

Glad both Big Take and Arrturi took the time NOT to read anything but the last 2 phrases I wrote. Shows how grown up you are.
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Peet
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Re: Curious

Post by Peet » 21 May 2010, 02:41

Yes, yes, the name calling is contributing endlessly to the conversation.
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Hobo Joe
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Re: Curious

Post by Hobo Joe » 21 May 2010, 03:05

Gota wrote: I can tell you that...to the grave,to rot.
An exciting prospect. :D
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Gota
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Re: Curious

Post by Gota » 21 May 2010, 03:09

Hobo Joe wrote:
Gota wrote: I can tell you that...to the grave,to rot.
An exciting prospect. :D
Was it exciting before you were born?same sort of excitement i reckon.
If only it wasn't so tough to actually end human life..
you were so many other things...why is being a human more special than the things you were before and will be after your human life ends and your physical body disassembles and merges with other stuff.
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Das Bruce
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Re: Curious

Post by Das Bruce » 21 May 2010, 03:18

Can you put [religious] or [political] before your thread title so I can avoid it next time.
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Raghna
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Re: Curious

Post by Raghna » 21 May 2010, 03:24

FU das bruce
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Big Take
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Re: Curious

Post by Big Take » 21 May 2010, 04:30

Peet wrote:Yes, yes, the name calling is contributing endlessly to the conversation.
I think part of the problem is that Raghna wouldn't know a civil debate if he was strapped into a chair and forced to watch one Clockwork Orange style.
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1v0ry_k1ng
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Re: Curious

Post by 1v0ry_k1ng » 21 May 2010, 05:16

I wonder what will happen when they do discover what caused the big bang...than your belief will change again to adjust just like the church did many times.

Religion has always pushed god where science has not reached yet.
first we were on a flat earth and god was in the sky..than we were round and the center of the universe than we were spinning around something as oppose to everything spinning around us,than we discovered we are actually at the outskirts of a completely meaningless galaxy and there are millions like ours.
in short, yes, this is my perspective on religion also. It cannot be scientifically proven, and everytime in the past it has been too heavily contradicted by either science or the values of society the religion was forced to change its tune in order to fit into another shadow beyond existing logic.
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Forboding Angel
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Re: Curious

Post by Forboding Angel » 21 May 2010, 06:31

Peet wrote: Please give me an example of a religion that completely discounts the old testament. Every popular christian denomination uses (cherry-picked of course) teachings from it.
I'm speaking specifically of Leviticus and Deuteronomy (Law and second law). I was not unclear with what I was talking about.

Of course not the entire thing, that would be stupid. If you had actually read the bible, you would know this already and you would realize that the mere suggestion of following Leviticus and Deuteronomy to the letter is outright lunacy. Especially since Jesus himself changed the ways and laws, especially when he died.

Moreover, after that is when paul started his ministry to the gentiles (you and me, a, la, non-jews). Before Jesus' death, a gentile would not have been able to attain salvation.

Just because you don't believe in something doesn't mean that you shouldn't learn about it.
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SwiftSpear
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Re: Curious

Post by SwiftSpear » 21 May 2010, 08:51

zwzsg wrote:
Since when has Christianity ever been a problem?
From the start. Don't you recall the christ was judged and condemned for being troublesome?
I mean true Christianity. Not some mental nut who does something stupid and calls himself a Christian.
But it's true christians who are the problematic nuts! Half-Christian and moderate christians are much more open and tolerant, so they don't create that many issues.
I'd argue that fundamentalist Christians are vastly lacking in religious development and depth. Largely, they are people who constantly and aggressively ignore the principles and philosophies of the religion and cherry pick that which they like to impose control over other people and suit their own agendas.

Christ, at least according to the bible, was not judged and condemned for being troublesome. The judge refused to judge against him, and effectively just decided to cede to the whims of the religious leaders demanding his head for political reasons.

Christ undermined the authority and control of the religious elite. The religious elite, in my mind, being the entity fundamentalists would have rebuilt.

Christianity has been systematically undermined and deflated since the time of Christ. Church attendance may be fairly high, but there are very few true Christians left.
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Jazcash
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Re: Curious

Post by Jazcash » 21 May 2010, 09:32

Sucky_Lord wrote:
Jazcash wrote:I don't usually relate the two. My own opinion at the moment is that charities are more destructive than they are good, as well as their intention is.
Yes, pretend the things in the world around you arent real. Did you mention your child who is dependant on pocket money will starve without the money, and he wont have an 18th birthday because he is stuck at the age of 8?
Once again, a shit analogy that merely suggests you have a great understanding of the world around you, whereas really you simply make up excuses to continue living your life as it is, ignoring everyone else that is suffering.
What the hell are you talking about? It's just an example. If the whole cake thing makes more sense to you I can translate it to cake language instead. I'm not saying I'm against charities, I'm just saying the money could be better spent to aid the third world and such poverty stricken places. Don't get me wrong, charities are much more moral than having no charities but it's not doing the third world and such any good. A recent conservative I heard speak had this as an example.

Every year, some people sent shoes to people in Africa because they thought the people in Africa didn't have any shoes. They thought it would make a nice gift for them as shoes would protect their their feet and so on. It turned out that they already had shoes and instead they tore the shoes apart and sold the material and it dominated all the African market of leather and so on. It put hundreds out of business and left the people who were sent shoes, rich.

This is just a single example. You cannot spoon-feed a country forever and sooner or later you're going to have to help it to sustain itself. If you disagree, well then you're an idiot.
momfreeek wrote:@jaz
Your answers make sense. But if its wrong to persecute/criminalise gays how can you use the bible to justify your support of a political party that would do just that? It is their cross to bear and not your job to judge their actions.
Because firstly, I am not a Christian. Secondly, I have a choice and it's not a violent choice. Thirdly, preventing gay marriages in churches and the teaching of homosexuality is not persecution of homosexuality, it is simply control of it.
momfreeek wrote: The stuff you see a lot of on tv is disaster relief. If people are starving all you can do is send them food. There's no point helping them grow food if they are going to die tommorrow.
I agree, I still think charities should operate but more should be done to help the country become self-sustainable. After that happens, charities for those countries need no longer exist and the money can go towards more useful means.

It's in fact proved that nobody believed the earth was flat, ever because the Bible has always stated the earth is a "globe".
Science cannot disprove God.
Gota wrote:spread the word
Gota wrote:force their shit on others
These two contradict. Evangelism is not force.
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