General Election - Derailed into religion, morality and life

[Neddie]

Well, traditionally there has been a relationship between the two positions. Much of the fear surrounding homosexuality historically has involved a certain degree of discomfort with the replacement/transformation of sex-gender roles and the perception that homosexuality somehow degrades masculinity or femininity. This is borne out in the stereotypes of the vain feminine male homosexual and the coarse masculine female homosexual which have been expressed in Western cultures for decades.

While you cannot say that all those who are homophobic are also sexist, often they are.

[Neddie]

Just because I don't believe a man should put his cock into another mans ass...

I'll discard the side note that this only addresses the stereotype of male homosexuality and instead point out that many homosexual men do not engage in anal sex. You're objecting to an act here, not an orientation.

[Big Take]

I don't believe a man should put his cock into another mans ass

But to what length would you go to prevent that from happening?

Well, he clearly supports a political party that would gladly make such activities illegal. I wonder what other icky things he wants to make illegal. I bet he doesn't think it's so bad if one woman gives another oral stimulation. Or if a man puts his cock in a womans ass. Or maybe he does! Maybe Jazcash wants some morality police kicking in bedroom doors making sex clean and wholesome. I'd like an answer to that one.

Oh, and for the sexism and homophobia being a correlation, well, your stance is that a man and a man don't make a good couple, a woman and a woman don't make a good couple, but a man and a woman do. Algebra time!
M=Man
W=Woman
C=Healthy couple

M+W=C is your stance
M+M=C is mine
M+M=M+W subtract that extra M from each side and...
M=W oh look, the root of the issue? Possibly? Nah, it's gotta be that icky buttsex.

[Jazcash]

No, absolutely not. I'm appauled at how disgustingly brainwashed you've been as a child.

Im not even going to go into the "sick and twisted" things done of God's behalf. Just read the Old Testament.

Ok i cant resist, just one example: "send rebuke upon them, vexation and fever, inflammation, pestilence to destroy them, extreme burning, blasting, mildew, the terrible botch of egypt, scabs, haemorrhoids, madness, blindness.." (Deuteronomy 28: 20-55)

Read my earlier post.

we need to break this down a bit more man

everyone hates religious extremists, muslim, christian or otherwise...

there is a massive difference (i damn well hope anyways lol) between your parents, who are christian, and jeffery dahmer, also a christian. somebodys religion doesn't make them nuts, it's all the other crap that goes along with it... social standing, family life and umpteen other things.

even your form of christianity (making a bold leap here because i know you live in the UK) differs from most of the other forms around the world, iirc your religious leaders are in the church of england, not the vatican.

anyways. maybe just say "i am against islamic nutjobs" because that is probably more accurate, or even better "i am against people who use religion as an excuse to do messed up stuff."

and hell, if you want to be against all of islam, go for it, but the bottom line is that the only part of islam that is actually against you personally are the crazy dudes with neckbeards and c4 vests.

just at a guess i would say that over the entire course of history, christianity has caused more death and societal turmoil than islam (but in the last two centuries no)

I agree with most of what you say. And yeah, I didn't give much justification for why I'm against Islam.

Ok, so basically, I'm against people who follow the Qur'an and try to follow the Islamic teachings as much as possible. Islamic teachings teach a lot more things that I would consider immoral compared to what the Bible teaches. In fact, if I was a proper Muslim and followed the word of the Qur'an, I would have killed by parents long ago.

I understand some Muslims are more militant than others. I believe these are the true Muslims as they are simply doing what they are told to do in the Qur'an.

Similarly, I believe my parents are Christian because they try to follow what the Bible teaches as much as possible.

One reason why some religions can be misunderstood is because of some individuals who do certain things and think certain ways and label themselves to a religion. Therefore, people may think that religion allows for that person's actions or that that person's actions are justified by that religion.

In my own belief, a true Christian would follow the word of the Bible and strive to achieve what it teaches as much as possible.

I'm quite aware of the tenets of child raising and the model of morals expressed in the Bible as well as the apocrypha. It is difficult to evaluate whether or not they have been applied as directed and even when employed they do not have a consistent measured impact upon children which sets them above or below those raised other under principles or with other religious tenets.

Were you aware that the texts of Islam and Judaism similarly contain direction on child rearing and models of morality? These are even quite similar to those expressed in the Bible.

Ok, so maybe I wasn't explaining enough. My parents raised me in a disciplined manner doing what's they belived to be best for me. As is obvious, sometimes cruelty is needed to be kind. A child without discipline runs riot.

I was taught what the Bible teaches, I was made to read the Bible and I'm glad I was as it's taught me a whole lot more about life than I ever would have learnt from anywhere else.

I'll accept your views and I was a bit blunt in what I said. It's hard for me to clear up how I was raised as an early child because it's hard to remember back that far, however, I can tell you I wasn't raised badly in a moral sense.

[Jazcash]

M+W=C is your stance
M+M=C is mine

Sorry, didn't realise you were gay.

And I'm not an extremist. I don't believe anything should be enforced upon somebody's social life. But in terms of politics, I don't believe Gay marriage should be allowed, homosexuality shouldn't be promoted or taught to be natural and perfectly fine in education.

[Neddie]

I don't think Big Take said that he or she was gay or even male at any point. The stance is the one taken in the argument, it may or may not reflect the experience of life.

[Big Take]

M+W=C is your stance
M+M=C is mine

Sorry, didn't realise you were gay.

And I'm not an extremist. I don't believe anything should be enforced upon somebody's social life. But in terms of politics, I don't believe Gay marriage should be allowed, homosexuality shouldn't be promoted or taught to be natural and perfectly fine in education.

Oh, okay, so you're fine with consenting adults doing their thing in the privacy of their own homes?

Please justify why a gay relationship is somehow morally and legally inferior to a heterosexual one, because that's the consistent message obtained from making gay marriage legally inferior to heterosexual marriage.

Also, please clarify what you mean by "taught to be natural and perfectly fine." Do you think gay kids should be harassed, bullied, and abused by the heterosexual ones in an attempt to correct their behavior? Do you think heterosexual students should just accept their gay peers as fine and dandy people who happen to do something different? Because there's no way to say "homosexuality is unnatural and not okay, but don't do anything to let the gay kids know you think they're less of human beings for it."

Also way to suggest that because I think two men can make a healthy couple I must be a gay man.

[Jazcash]

I don't believe being gay is a genetic thing and is a more a psychological development of the brain. Thus, I don't believe children of that kind of early age have the ability to be gay. When I was that young, I was neither heterosexual or homosexual.

As I believe homosexuality is wrong, I think it shouldn't be taught to be right to young children. I think it's perverse and just sick. As I said, we're all entitled to our opinions and I'm just somebody who doesn't believe homosexuality is right. Therefore I'm in support of the BNP on this issue also.

Do you think gay kids should be harassed, bullied, and abused by the heterosexual ones in an attempt to correct their behavior?

No.

Do you think heterosexual students should just accept their gay peers as fine and dandy people who happen to do something different?

Who am I to say how people should think. All humans are psychologically corrupt, I have no position stating how people should live their lives. All I can do is say what I would do in my position and give advise about what I believe to be right.

Also way to suggest that because I think two men can make a healthy couple I must be a gay man.

I said that because you stated I believed that a man and a woman make a healthy couple where as you didn't.

[Big Take]

I don't believe being gay is a genetic thing and is a more a psychological development of the brain. Thus, I don't believe children of that kind of early age have the ability to be gay. When I was that young, I was neither heterosexual or homosexual.

As I believe homosexuality is wrong, I think it shouldn't be taught to be right to young children. I think it's perverse and just sick. As I said, we're all entitled to our opinions and I'm just somebody who doesn't believe homosexuality is right. Therefore I'm in support of the BNP on this issue also.

Do you have ANY justification for that at all? Or is it just that you think it's perverse based on some esoteric opinion you were given decades ago and have never questioned?

Also, do you really not get that telling teenagers that their feelings, feelings they've no control over whatsoever (which is backed up by decades of empirical research), are perverse and wrong is damaging to their psyches? A lot more damaging than, say, the simple act of having a sexual and emotional preference for one type of people?

Do you think gay kids should be harassed, bullied, and abused by the heterosexual ones in an attempt to correct their behavior?

No.

Cool, now explain how you expressing your view and having it accepted doesn't DIRECTLY lead to bullying.

Do you think heterosexual students should just accept their gay peers as fine and dandy people who happen to do something different?

Who am I to say how people should think. All humans are psychologically corrupt, I have no position stating how people should live their lives. All I can do is say what I would do in my position and give advise about what I believe to be right.

But you are telling people what to think, because you're saying that their thoughts of homosexual romance are wrong and perverse! You might as well be saying that liking redheads is a twisted mockery of nature, or that wanting to be with someone significantly different in height is blasphemy. If you can't back it up with anything, all you're doing is denigrating people for inborn or learned preferences they've little to no control over and that CAUSE NOBODY ANY HARM.

[Sausage]

i dont get all this right and wrong nonsense, who gives a crap if ppl decide to be gay or have sexual feelings for their own gender.. its their choice. wats all this "its wrong, I dont agree with it" crap, thats fine - its ur opinion but why does everyone have to think the same as you. you cant just tell people not to be gay, its how they feel and they cant just change it. disallowing gay marraiges is a stupid pointless attack on gays just because you dont understand and dont like how they think/act. just lern 2 tolerate and quit trying to control ppl

[bobthedinosaur]

monkeys running around with forbidden technology... that is wrong

[KaiserJ]

I understand some Muslims are more militant than others. I believe these are the true Muslims as they are simply doing what they are told to do in the Qur'an.

fair enough; because no world religion is homogenous; with as with christianity, islam has many different sects with variations on how the qu'ran is interpreted and taught... i figure, the longer a religion is around, the more it splits off and becomes abstracted, and you end up with people who will claim to be of the same religion but worship in completely different ways.

i would put it forth that religion is not an inherently bad thing, it's just the over the course of history, different evil people have used religion as a vehicle to convey their own twisted and maligned ideals for some sort of personal gain

i'm coming from a place where i live with a mixed group of friends; people from all different backgrounds and cultures without the impact on jobs / weath / crowding, so it makes it easy for me to have a view like this.. ive had muslim friends since a very young age in either case, how "canada cliche" is that.... (not to mention that my country has never been successfully attacked by muslim extremists, which i can certainly see as something that might sway ones opinion a little bit lol)

and as you've pointed out, a lot of it is to do with indoctrination, and being constantly exposed to ideas in a way that shapes your behavior... i just kind of feel that if the religions were reversed (muslims in england with success economically for thousands of years and then christians in the middle east living in less affluent and war-torn nations) then we'd maybe end up with the same sort of situation...

i mean, you probably have a pretty nice life, just like me! we've never been invaded in our lifetimes, we live pretty securely for the most part, and we are given freedom to access pretty much any information that we want... if we had grown up in some hut in the wilderness with only religious teachings of militants to give us outside information, you're damn right we'd hate whoever they told us to hate, because we wouldnt have any other perspectives to base it on!

heh and certainly im not trying to change YOUR view; just a topic that interests me

as far as the homosexuality thing goes; i figure people have the right to do what they like in private; if it involves sticking a parking cone in their ass or strangling themselves with latex so be it, but with everyone it's generally appreciated to keep ones sexuality more private; its the same thing as with having to look at my buddys fatass GF in a small bikini... he likes it, i hates it... its just uncalled for because some people won't appreciate it... you wouldnt show your mom your pronz, amirite?

if homosexuality is a disease (not something i personally believe) the people with said disease are still people and should be treated as such, with the same rights and freedoms as everyone else

i recall some of the BNP homosexuality thing being about gay teachers... no teacher should be overtly sexual in any sense, it's just creepy. children should not be swayed one way or the other in my opinion.

[Sucky_Lord]

I understand some Muslims are more militant than others. I believe these are the true Muslims as they are simply doing what they are told to do in the Qur'an.

Wtf? In the bible you're told to "Put to death by stone" aethists. (This is just one quote of hundreds). But you're not going to do this to be a true christian are you?

And don't give me any of the "It was fine in that cultural context" rubbish, because we both know it obviously wasnt.

[Sausage]

Wtf? In the bible you're told to "Put to death by stone" aethists.

The bible was written by a bunch of ppl and maybe that is just that one guy's opinion.
I don't think that's meant to be there or what Christians really believe which adds to my belief that the Bible is a load of crap

[AF]

I wonder why Americans have a vague idea that you should only judge political parties purely by their policies, and ignore the voters of the native country when they draw upon decades of first hand experience demonstrating the opposite

[Neddie]

I wonder why Americans have a vague idea that you should only judge political parties purely by their policies, and ignore the voters of the native country when they draw upon decades of first hand experience demonstrating the opposite

I wonder what that is in reference to. Jaz asked that people address the policies, and I did so. I don't think anybody here has ignored the voters, and there are few enough Americans contributing to the discussion.

[FLOZi]

"To suggest that rape, when conducted without violence, is a serious crime is like suggesting that force-feeding a woman chocolate cake is a heinous offence. "

"A woman would be more inconvenienced by having her handbag snatched."

-- One of jazcash' heroes.

[Raghna]

This is all a bit tl so I dr, I'd just like to know, what are the conclusions of the vote? We're gonna have elections in Belgium as well next June, gets me wondering what other people will vote on...

I don't think being anti-immigrant should be seen as rascisme. I don't see people from the middle east robbing whites, somthimes killing them in their country being called rascisme. They just do it because they know tourists have more money.

Just my 2 cents.

Btw, when is the UK gonna give up their pounds and switch to Euro?

[Sucky_Lord]

Btw, when is the UK gonna give up their pounds and switch to Euro?

Never according to UKIP

[Gota]

monkeys running around with forbidden technology... that is wrong

I feel the same way about people who use their left arm for masturbation.
Need to ban this practice right away.

Immigration is an economic tool..you have to see it through that prism.
In some extreme cases immigration caused huge changes in a country but those examples(Lebanon for one) are nothing like How things are in the UK(even though Lebanon was a democratic country).

Aside from immigration and cheap labor being useful to lower wages and keep certain types of production in the country afloat they also require from the native population to be patient and tolerant and bare the burden of living with people it is not used to and feels uncomfortable with.
Stopping immigration has certain consequences depending on how your country's economy is structured,check and see if you are ready for those consequences.

Like i said to some before,I don't vote because I feel I do not truly understand the consequences of the actions parties want to take.
I am not an economist(I realize economy is very complicated and impossible to predict) and I do not have enough information to decide what the foreign affairs policy must be or which are the better social policies..
IMO if one does not understand those he should not vote.

If most general policies have the potential of being effective when in capable hands than the voting process should be directed not at allowing the public to decide what actions should be taken,at least nt in some areas, but at the pubic making sure the proper posts are manned by the proper,skilled people.

not voting cause your unsure what parties want to do,IMO,is the right thing to do.
In Britain's case,I feel after listening to some people talk about it,many don't actually know what parties stand for or the real consequences of a certain party being elected.
in general it's "they are gonna give money to rich" or the other way around.
Or something about how those are crooks or many other populist slogans/statements.

Would be better of if instead of this American idol like activity people would spend more resources in combating corruption and monitoring laws that are getting voted on.
The weight of the people should be felt strongest in law making and law enforcement not what puppet should sit at the top as if its a monarchy or a dictatorship.