What Peet Took ( and what he declined to share )

[Kloot]

I leave you with what you could have had

As an outsider, I'll just say talk is cheap and Grand Schemes even more so. And one thing Spring definitely does not need is this shitstorm of drama surrounding them.

What then if the other projects read up on my project and start taking bits and changing their own concept of what their programs purpose is to fit closer to mine by implementing various features and borrowing ideas? I don't want rivals or duplications.

If an idea is any good, so are the chances of it being independently discovered and implemented by the other projects. One of your problems is that you flatter yourself far too much, there are many other highly talented people here more than capable of realizing something without being priorly exposed to the smell of your rose garden. Also, being the first-to-market (which seems to be the running thread) doesn't prove you came up with the idea first, just that you put it into code form before anyone else did, and not necessarily in the best way. If that's what matters to you, the solution is simple: don't make anything even semi-public ever.

[Neddie]

Since I never completed my writeups, and didnt scan most of my sketches, this is but a fraction of what detail I had.

Speaking from experience, whether true or not, this doesn't count for anything with people who don't respect you.

[zwzsg]

Sounds like some heavy drama, was there really some huge secret mega thing going on, and then an irremissible foul treacherousness, leading to incommensurable loss and denying us a new golden age, or is it just the usual AF being AF gig?

[smoth]

I do not feel all of this belongs in the ENGINE DEVELOPMENT FORUM.

[aegis]

kloot++

I don't think it's generally fair to exclude someone from a public thread casting them in a bad light

or involvement in rival projects (aegis, etc)

my only major lobby-related project for spring was uberserver, and you even mentioned including it.


and while you might claim this is a new "development", you've made it quite clear this no longer has anything to do with spring.
moved to the proper forum.

[lurker]

Eh, most of the bad light stuff was in the other thread. But okay, Peet can post, bug aegis if you want different.

[KaiserJ]

edit: honestly, just read through the threads on your forum... there wasn't really much to be gleaned there information wise from what i could see except for a bunch of shit-talk about springrts forum members, some pencil crayon sketches (they were quite pretty actually) and some grandiose plans.

good work with that; and good luck with "oh they never logged in so i baleeted their accounts / changed the access rights."

this really doesn't have all that much to do with me, except for a brief mention of the unsuitability of my project for whatever implementation you had planned (not really insulted, and the tone was more dismissive than anything; was just funny to see my project mentioned and dismissed in a few lines of text) but at the same time, its funny to see how you attempted to break off a part of the community and the explosive outcome.

oh yes, im sure it's ALL peets fault, since he hacked into your forum. my friend accidentally walked into the area that i paint the other day, and saw the picture i was working on for her for christmas. guess i'd better smash it, because now the secrets out and the work itself has lost all meaning!

what is lacking here is mutual respect; i have no clue why so many people dislike you (although after seeing the sorts of comments you make about people in a semi-public forum i'm starting to see why) and i really don't think that building a little fort and hiding in it with your friends will solve any of the problems in the big wide world.

im new to spring, but forum / counterforum / community fragmentation is old hat to me. we know you're capable of lots, and *i* know you're capable of being liked. if you continue with your development i hope you make it as transparent and visible as possible, so that people can see you are working on something... even if they don't like you, and you make something good, they must grudgingly respect you! and isn't that REALLY what all of this is about?

calm down. just calm down. NONE of this is worth getting upset about.

[smoth]

dunno, I think there is too much drama. I know, I know... anyway...

Af, I wouldn't let it stop you. I suggest making the most of it and then just keep going silently.

[Gota]

So.
How about starting over?
Everybody cools down and the ideas in that forum examined and used if good?
This is all due to lack of communication.
It is always the system's fault not the people's.
If there is a lot of fragmentation in the community than the system must not be doing what is necessary to stop it.
There is a lot of fighting among all different devs..
Developers of the different things like mods/lobby/AI etc...
There needs to be a dedicated communication service for all these devs that are separated/semi-seperated from the community.

A dedicated forum thread didn't seem to work for mappers but perhaps it will for developers?
It is obvious people have negative feelings and a long history of miscommunication,Perhaps it will be best to make the system anonymous(as long as it does not allow people to post as several different users to support or criticize an idea).
This way each idea can be judged correctly,without the person standing behind it clouding it.

The only people i heard and remembered seriously talking about any restructuring of the system are
BrainDamage,Neddie,Dave and Tobi.
The efficiency and success of the project/s and the engine as a whole(since it is comprised of many contributors) depends on how good the individuals can work together.

These blowouts are a negative phenomenon and the fact AF felt he needs to create his own thing instead of cooperating with everyone cannot be blamed on him but instead on the community as a whole IMO.

I think:
This sort of inter-dev communication needs to be improved:
*1:anonymity(same devs working for many years together or side by side are bound to have negative emotions even if they are very calm and positive people).
*2:A system that allows to criticize/suggest ideas, to others anonymously while making sure nobody is misusing it.
*2:harsher moderation and higher standards for such communication.

Normal chatter should not be anonymous but anything that has to do with cooperation,work on something and criticism/advice/help should be anonymous.
This might even mean that people start projects anonymously and people join them anonymously.
And it cant be just an agreement it has to be supported by the forums/any other system that developers usually communicate through.
There has to be an interactive list of all started projects,all their released info and status and a system to officially open and start work on a project.

I think the Spring project needs to acknowledge itself as a platform for making open source games based on the spring engine and provide the best tools for cooperation of open source projects.
Including anonymous posting,anonymous pming and project status tracking and development.

[zwzsg]

But I thought we were all anonymous on the internet! Hiding our true identity behind nicknames and all! Aren't it so, Yan?

[Gota]

But I thought we were all anonymous on the internet! Hiding our true identity behind nicknames and all! Aren't it so, Yan?

Thats the problem IMO.
The project and all involved in it and around it have grown to a bigt size.
Developers only contact each other through the inet this causes alot of these crisis situation.
Anonymity from the internet identity itself when actually working on a project or gathering critic/ideas will benefit spring but only if the system officially support it and makes it easy for people to work anonymously.

[smoth]

I am not anonymous, you guys know what I look like and roughly where I live. Not really a big deal, I think I would piss myself laughing if a guy from the interwebs showed up to get buck with me.

[aegis]

/me packs a dollar and some clothes and gets on a bus

[zwzsg]

Way to miss the point Smoth. We're not talking about anonymisation between our RL-selves self and our internet selves. No, what Gota requests here is the anonymisation between our internet identities and our internet identity.

[smoth]

that is called smurfing and he does that a lot. Even so far as to register an account here and agree with himself. It happened.

[Gota]

that is called smurfing and he does that a lot. Even so far as to register an account here and agree with himself. It happened.

This is a prime example.
My suggestion might be bad or not but illuminating it like smoth just did by referign to me and my history is not positive for making sure good ideas are preferred over less good ones.
This is not Smoths fault since we all do it or at least we all think it.
It the fault of how this sort of communication is arranged.
even trolls and idiots can have a good idea once in a while.

[smoth]

to finish your post:

but have lost all credibility thanks to their consistently bad behavior. That is the price you pay for acting up.

[Beherith]

So basic your actually saying all the devs should just make sock puppets to support their views in this great anonymous development model? Awesome.

[Gota]

So basic your actually saying all the devs should just make sock puppets to support their views in this great anonymous development model? Awesome.

Yeah!!
this is mine :

[Regret]