Torture

[smoth]

still not the point, it is still a gross exaggeration that the countries are as bad as a 3rd world...

I have not said that i condone torture, which seems to be hard for you lot to believe.

[zwzsg]

Actually, instead of as bad, it could be worse: lowly 3rd world country haven't reached the same level of sophistication with torturing, their method are more crude and less controlled, so when they torture hard, you have a good chance to die after a couple days. Or they can send you to some filthy jail, which may last decades but is way more bearable than non stop torture for over a year.

[Gota]

we cannot pretend that the us and it's allies are the only ones employing it.

Yes but if the US and It's allies are torturing and killing people how can they than claim that they have the moral highground?

[zwzsg]

US does not simply claim to have moral high ground.

US invade far away countries that have done nothing to them under the pretense of gifting them their higher moral values.

[smoth]

don't forget the cia, if you are going to hate on the big villian the usa you cannot leave the cia out, they are responsible for all wrongs

[zwzsg]

I don't say US is the big villain, just that when you feel entitled force freedom on unwilling countries, you really need to make sure you're irreproachable.

But yes, the CIA is responsible for murdering a democratically elected leftish leader and replacing it with one of the most torturing dictator of the end of last century.

But again it would be bold to claim the CIA is the sole responsible of all wrongs on earth. Plenty of countries do wrong. But they're not doning shining white Paladdin armor like the US does.

I'll try to sum it up:

Code: Select all

          Do wrongs        Say they're morally above     Crush random countries on a whim
  US         yes                     yes                               yes
Others       yes                     no (1)                            no (2)

(1) Actually every governement claim they're the best, the difference is only in US the populace believes it
(2) The USSR used to do it, but it doesn't exist anymore.

[smoth]

so effectively if I get you, it is the fact that the current policy is agree with us or agree with us? I think any country put into the sort of position the us is in will do that... fear the day when china takes that spot, it will be in our lifetimes I suspect.

[zwzsg]

The thing is, US wasn't always like that.

For instance, during WW2, the german often willingfully surrendered to the US because they knew the US treated prisoners very well, while USSR did not.

[smoth]

I know, I have read stories about how some of the native Americans were to captives. I think it all goes down to the fact that most Americans never heard of those funny Muslims until 911 and the reaction was resounding hatred. I cannot pretend I would have been any better but one of my college mentors is Lebanese so I kinda have exposure to real Muslims who are not crazy.

[[TS]Lollocide]

Torture: bad.

Truth telling drugs that fuck with your mind until you think you're speaking with God:

Good.

Torture has merits, but its so....uncivilised.

[PicassoCT]

we cannot pretend that the us and it's allies are the only ones employing it. All of this "oh we are such bad people for it" is so fucking dumb. Like I said, I do not care for torture but frankly I suspect having one's head cut off or genitals removed is pretty goddamn worse.

feel free to attack me like I am some how saying it is justified, your fault for wanting me to be that person.

I am saying that saying the us/europe is as bad as a third world country is several levels of severity worse.

I never counted Israel in my discussion as I have a strong hatred for Israel.

want to try and flame me or start a political flame war get your shit together better than that sleksa.

After cuting genitals and heads... saudi land is still a personal favourite for the oil... i knew that attitude smoth, its called calculating and my grandfather always did it.. well we kille 6 Million Jews .. Stalin killed 20 Million Kulaks... so we had 16 million kills left - and that was world war 2- after all it is ballanced.. how can it be evil

[Panda]

Torture: bad.

Truth telling drugs that fuck with your mind until you think you're speaking with God:

Good.

Torture has merits, but its so....uncivilised.

Or maybe they just make you hallucinate or something.

[[TS]Lollocide]

Torture: bad.

Truth telling drugs that fuck with your mind until you think you're speaking with God:

Good.

Torture has merits, but its so....uncivilised.

Or maybe they just make you hallucinate or something.

Ehem.

Durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[PicassoCT]

We have to invade, this is bat country! He is telling it me on drugz

[Forboding Angel]

Hey another bash the US thread, now there's a shocker.

Smoth get it right. The US on this chart shall be represented with:

KKK

All of europe shall be represented with:

[Peet]

People are exhibiting an array of diverse opinions THEREFORE MY COUNTRY IS BEING SPECIFICALLY AND SYSTEMATICALLY INSULTED! BOO-URNS.

[Snipawolf]

It's not my fault America is acting "world police". Seriously, we need to quit helping other nations, militarily and financially or with aid and tons of supplies. The moral high horse is not just in what we do with our military. We seem... obligated... to help nations who don't care about us when they're hit by, for example, a tsunami. Despite us being in shitty conditions as it is, with our crazy money and economic problems, we still seem so willing to give because we're desensitized to it. Oh, 800 billion dollars? Who cares, it's just a number, hah hah hah. Yeah... Right.

Torture is fine, depending on the usage. Then again, I'm a person who believes that an inmate with a life sentence needs to be killed to preserve resources for useful members of our society...

[Gota]

Torture is fine when you can know for 100% a person is guilty and knows the information your looking for that can save lives...
Obviously you cant and statistically there will be a percentage of people who cant supply the info your looking for and even more importantly people who are completely innocent.
Its the same dilemma as with the death sentence.

As i already wrote this all comes down to personal judgment of the operatives at each and every case...
Hence it is very important that those operatives have the right kind of attitude and education about what they are doing so as to lower the percentage of innocent people to a minimum and lower torture cases overall.

Another thing is that Banning torture is also extremely hard.
Special agents and special operatives might have serious moral issues when they are faced with a person who might disclose info as a result of torture,
that might save many lives.
What if he deos not torture him to later find out it was a mistake and dozens of peopel died?or even just one.
These are very hard questions and problems ,especially since we cant completely remove the operative's responsibility over the lives he did not save cause he did not torture people,because we cant make sure all interrogations are done in an official manner and are monitored...
This,i bet is almost impossible due to the way all these agencies work.
If 100% of all interrogations were under observation in some way and the rule was "do not torture" a person would not feel responsible for any death following not torturing someone because he had no choice,he just couldn't torture the suspect even if he wanted to.

[Gota]

About the US.
The US does not just give out money for no reason...
Nobody does,just like you don't generally give out money to people without getting some benefit out of it.
A country is only the sum of people living in it...

Money buys rights,political superiority,aid in some other way,power to effects decisions in the place your giving money to and also a way to stimulate the economics of the country(the one making the "donations").
All the above can give much more money back than the amount donated.

The question is,who in the US gives the money and who exactly receives it back,but that is an internal Us question..
Another issue is that the US Is an economic and industrial international powerhouse,and it houses many of the worlds most influential corporations and individuals.
one of the reasons The US is so rich is cause it jump started it's economy by "spreading it's wing" over many countries as a result of the WW2 European breakdown and the cold war with the SSSR.
Now that those countries regained economic power influential people there do not always share the US's economic interests and thus do all they can to make sure their entire country is protesting against US power.

I personally do not believe in right or wrong.
The strongest is right and the weakest is wrong.
History proves this argument.
If the SSSR would have won the economic war with the US there would be a completely different history presented to us saying how Communism is great and Capitalism and democracy suck.

The US is losing power and popularity not cause It's moral guidance is wrong or any of those nonsense but cause Europe and Asian countries and the elites there are regaining power and want a piece of the "action" and are doing all they can to make sure the rest of the population helps them get it.
If anyone thinks the news media can be objective he is naive.
it is always subjective whether it is a newspaper a website or tv news and it is always someone's property and under someone's control.
the fact US is losing it's popularity would be a good thing Since it is too powerful and can allow itself to use lesser countries if its by sucking up natural resources or using cheap labor but the problem is who will step in if the US steps out?
The candidates are Russia and china.
Does the western democratic world really wants to be influenced by the chinese regime or by the russian regime?

There is no doubt in my mind that if those 2 conservative countries are allowed to spread their influence you can forget about some of those beloved western liberal opinion.

Not to mention the fact that This whole European uprising vs the US was a result of European economic interests not being given enough attention in the middle east as the US started the Iraq war.

[[TS]Lollocide]

If the SSSR would have won the economic war with the US there would be a completely different history presented to us saying how Communism is great and Capitalism and democracy suck.

A brief note on this capitalism vs communism shit.

Communism only works while there is faith in the system, that your neighbour is working just as hard as you are for the same reward, this system immediately breaks down when faith is lost in it.

Capitalism works because it is faith in money, with none of the issues that befall communism.

Also I disagree that the US would want to 'keep down' other countries who are on the up and up, because they represent expansion possiblities for American companies (Or 'Partnerships') and, of course, a potentially massive new base of consumers.

And who doesn't want a new market of untapped consumer wealth?