School Shooting in Germany

[smoth]

Quoted from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence :

Firearm homicide rate per 100,000 pop.
0.12
2.97

I am 29.7x more likely to be killed with a firearm in america than in britan

yeah... I am not sure that is correct... but you are at least 2 times more likely to DIE here. and most of the time you are likey to die not with a fire arm. So oh no look forward to getting mugged.

I have NEVER had a gun pulled on me. I have known 1 dude that was held up and he sliced the other guy with a box cutter.

[Forboding Angel]

So youre saying that the state goverments are actively seeking to destroy your rights, and the only thing that stops it from happening is a gun in your hands, but the gun in your hands isnt really meant for violence, but other kind of "fighting?"

Exactly the opposite. The federal government does a piss poor job of governing the country compared to what the individual state governments are capable of, therefore, decisions such as gun control should never be on a federal level, and should remain on a state level.

How did you tie those things together? They were completely unrelated sleksa. The point is that you fight for your rights not with a gun in your hand, but politically, speaking out, etc.

I think Americans like you are fanatics. You're being brainwashed your whole life to believe in that kind of things. Your principals are based on 200 years old events, but you don't care about that because you were born and raised in exactly the same spirit.

Yes. I've been brainwashed to believe in my country and it's constitution "OH THE HORROR!!!!". Do you have any idea how silly you sound right there? Americans are people, just like you. They are neither smarted nor dumber than you are, only different as culture allows.

You are aware that utopia can never actually exist right? Human nature does not allow for a perfect "Utopia".

The truth is that getting a concealed carry weapon permit requires a lot of cash, and it also requires quite a few safety courses. It doesn't just happen like me going to an office and saying "Ohay I want to carry a gun around< pls give me permit NAO!". Doesn't happen like that. In fact, it's kind of a bitch to get that permit. Which is why the majority of people don't bother with it.

ps2. I've only used air and small caliber rifles and pistols. I don't know what's it like to shoot with any proper killing weapon. But then again 1 guy taking out 15 ppl is still better (in some sad way) then 15 guys killing 2-3. Easier weapon access = more weapon use.

Actually, common sense would suggest the opposite. If you know that you'll get killed for whipping it out to use on someone, that's a pretty good incentive to NOT do it, don't you think?

@sleksa, I was using the school shooting in Germany as an example in theory only. Not literally. Come on dude, think about it, it doesn't take a genius to understand what I meant.

@rattle, wouldn't it make sense to teach firearm safety in schools then? Develop a healthy respect for guns as a tool, and not as a weapon?

About 9 years ago, I was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and was mugged at gunpoint with a .45 pointed at my head. Long story short I lost my entire wallet, my cellphone, my DL, my paycheck (bank was my next stop... oh the irony), and various other hard things to replace. All in all, with what I had to go through to get everything back, it cost me well over $1000 bucks (including the lost paycheck, so that accounts for a good 6 or 7 hundred of it).

If I had a weapon on me at the time I wouldn't have tried anything, but it more people were concealed carrying, there's a good chance I wouldn't have been mugged in the first place, as it would have been rather risky for the 3 black guys in a car to rob someone in broad daylight. As it was, the 8 people that witnessed it couldn't really do shit.

Something you guys need to understand:
Personal firearms are NEVER a replacement for the police/authorities!!! Seems like that isn't making it's way home into peoples heads. Look, your first instinct should be to call 911. That's common sense, doesn't take a genius to know that, but if shit is hitting the fan, at least if you have your own firearm you are capable of protecting yourself. It's not the wild wild west, and no one wants to turn it into the wild wild west. Just people people like the idea of citizens packing guns does not mean that said citizens should be taking the law into their own hands. If they did, then obviously they would be punished (and whatever they did would mean felony, at which point, with a felony on your record, the last thing you can own is a gun, hell you can't even vote if you're a felon).

But then again, how many people are like me in the fact that they wouldn't carry it on their person anyway? Anyone else really feel like lugging along 5 pounds of deadweight everywhere they go? Could do, but I should think it's a bit more of a hassle than most people care for.

Meh regardless, this is going to end up being circular (like always), and the moment that personal insults start getting hurled it's time to stop. With Tombom and Sleksa here, it's only a matter of time.

./waves at thread

[yuritch]

If I had a weapon on me at the time I wouldn't have tried anything, but it more people were concealed carrying, there's a good chance I wouldn't have been mugged in the first place, as it would have been rather risky for the 3 black guys in a car to rob someone in broad daylight. As it was, the 8 people that witnessed it couldn't really do shit.

IMO that means the guns can only help to prevent crime when nearly everyone has them and carries them around all the time, ie gun ownership is mandatory. Which isn't going to happen - they aren't given away for free, and people are not forced to buy them.

[pintle]

You are aware that utopia can never actually exist right? Human nature does not allow for a perfect "Utopia".

Prove it

[danuker]

Prove it

Chuck Norris is alive.

[smoth]

I think so far felix has the best posts.

[Pressure Line]

*skips 4 pages of 'meaningful' debate*

I have an air rifle, visually its extremely similar to a real .22 (ive fired live .22's with target shooting bullets [hollow point] at rabbits, entry wound is about the size of my smallest fingernail, exit would is about the size of a golf ball.) and most people wouldn't know the difference tbh (and i can hit a coffee cup at 40' 90% of the time :D ). hell you can get airsoft guns that look exactly like a Colt .45. if its the deterrent factor you are after, get an airsoft gun (ofc theres the conceal/carry thing still to deal with)

shoot, forgot my point. bleh.

[Gota]

Relax people..if people living in America like having guns and people in Europe don't than both populations are exactly in the place they want to be.

[Panda]

the fact this is a huge industry in the us should play as a counterweight to any pro gun argument.
Fact is an industry that large,making so much money is sure to come up with plenty of reasons for people to carry a gun and spend plenty of cash to make sure people remember those reasons by heart.

If guns are prohibited it is much easier to track down the origins of guns used in any crime since guns are rare.

For that matter, we might as well ban clothing.

After all, there is a huge garment industry. With so much at stake, certainly they come up with lots of reasons why we should wear clothes, and make sure everyone is indoctrinated to wear clothes before they can even speak! It carries on through public schooling; you aren't allowed to attend school without wearing clothes - certainly a testament to the enormous clout of the multi-national clothing lobby with the governments of the world. The insidious garment agenda infiltrates every aspect of our society, from the workplace to places of worship; from Wall Street to Main Street.

Lol.

[Forboding Angel]

*skips 4 pages of 'meaningful' debate*

I have an air rifle, visually its extremely similar to a real .22 (ive fired live .22's with target shooting bullets [hollow point] at rabbits, entry wound is about the size of my smallest fingernail, exit would is about the size of a golf ball.) and most people wouldn't know the difference tbh (and i can hit a coffee cup at 40' 90% of the time :D ). hell you can get airsoft guns that look exactly like a Colt .45. if its the deterrent factor you are after, get an airsoft gun (ofc theres the conceal/carry thing still to deal with)

shoot, forgot my point. bleh.

Ok, now try hitting something moving with say a 9mm, or a .40, hell even a .38. A 22 has only slightly more kick than a bb gun, and the bullets bounce off of bone instead of penetrating. Hollowpoints are generally the rounds you get for a .22, they are dirt cheap to fire (12 bucks for a box of 500 shells) but they have no real stopping power. Not exactly a gun that is capable of threatening someone very well. If you shot someone in the skull with a .22 there's as good of a chance of it simply bouncing off as there is of it actually penetrating anything.

In WW2, american infantry were using armor piercing bullets vs the japanese. The upshot was that you had to drill someone 5 or 6 times before you could actually put them down generally. The bullet itself would pass straight on through, in many cases without the target even realizing that he had been shot (adrenaline, etc).

Your point was accuracy, well last time I popped off 100 .45 rounds, I tried setting up 2 targets side by side (separated by about a foot) at a range of about 20 yards, and I'm quite a good shot. I was firing 1 round per second initially with a 7 round clip, switching targets every shot. Long story short, my accuracy was dreadful. Then I tried going rambo style on one target emptying the clip as fast as I could. Accuracy went completely to shit.

The whole point I'm getting at is that large weapons aren't something you can use like james bond where you always hit what you shoot at, no matter how far away it is and regardless of the fact that it is moving... It doesn't work like that in real life.

How many of you actually know how sights on a pistol work?

[Sleksa]

Your point was accuracy, well last time I popped off 100 .45 rounds, I tried setting up 2 targets side by side (separated by about a foot) at a range of about 20 yards, and I'm quite a good shot. I was firing 1 round per second initially with a 7 round clip, switching targets every shot. Long story short, my accuracy was dreadful. Then I tried going rambo style on one target emptying the clip as fast as I could. Accuracy went completely to shit.

The whole point I'm getting at is that large weapons aren't something you can use like james bond where you always hit what you shoot at, no matter how far away it is and regardless of the fact that it is moving... It doesn't work like that in real life.

How is your accuracy with guns related to the discussion about stricter/looser gun laws preventing new shootouts?

Out of the 2 schoolshootings in finland and the recent one in germany, none were influenced by hollywood action movies, but were propably depressed/mentally unstable AND trained to handle guns (atleast one of the schoolshooters in finland was a member in a shooting club)

How many of you actually know how sights on a pistol work?

and the moment that personal insults start getting hurled it's time to stop. With Tombom and Sleksa here, it's only a matter of time.

[Forboding Angel]

Accuracy, I was replying directly to pressureline.

As for your second paragraph, you should prolly read the entire thread in it's entirety (instead of jsut skimming it). I never once suggested that any of these shootings were inspired by hollywood.

[smoth]

but Hollywood influence is a common assertion

[Pressure Line]

Accuracy, I was replying directly to pressureline.

As for your second paragraph, you should prolly read the entire thread in it's entirety (instead of jsut skimming it). I never once suggested that any of these shootings were inspired by hollywood.

If someone puts a gun in your face, regardless of the caliber, you're gonna stop and think very carefully about what you are doing/what you are about to do.

and yeah for accuracy a large calibre pistol is probably not the way to go. (i actually have never fired a live pistol, but have fired large hunting rifles, but I am aware that its a different ballgame)

I do not believe that movies/tv/games/music in any way influences people to drop their nuts and go shoot up a school. Anyone who has that deep seated a psychological problem is either going to a) realise it, get some help and get on with their lives b) grab a gun, shoot up a school/workplace/shoppingmall or c) grab a chair and some rope and swing by the neck.

people who have serious mental illness and/or cannot separate fiction from reality should NOT be the reason for banning/restricting access to anything.

tldr: dont blame guns if someone who is mentally ill goes on a shooting spree. Don't blame anything or anyone. But for the love of God, if you see/know someone heading that way, get help for them. Higher gun ownership rates will not prevent another Virginia Tech (i think that was the place?) but a bit of fucking compassion might.

[Forboding Angel]

I might as well clarify my stance.

I don't believe that everyone should HAVE to have a gun, but I do think that everyone (assuming no criminal record, not a felon, etc) should have the RIGHT to own a registered handgun if they choose to.

[Pressure Line]

Agreed. That was more or less the point I was trying to make in my last post.

Yes if a nutcase or a criminal gets hold of a handgun sad things happen. BUT that should not mean that John Q Citizen, who has never committed a violent crime, should not be allowed to buy a gun because he *might* lose the plot and shoot up a school, or walk into a bank and shoot a teller even though he has never shown any inclination to do so before.

Yes there should be controls, checks and balances to ensure that the public is safe, but blanket banning is not the answer. I'm of two minds about carrying a weapon in public [with the exception of police and appropriately trained on-duty private security personnel] concealed or not, mainly due to the fact that people tend to 'act first, think later' and the consequences of doing that while you have a 9mm under your waistband could be messy. Although thats not something I feel strongly about, as there are decent arguments for both cases.

[SwiftSpear]

Quoted from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence :

Firearm homicide rate per 100,000 pop.
0.12
2.97

I am 29.7x more likely to be killed with a firearm in america than in britan

yeah... I am not sure that is correct... but you are at least 2 times more likely to DIE here. and most of the time you are likey to die not with a fire arm. So oh no look forward to getting mugged.

I have NEVER had a gun pulled on me. I have known 1 dude that was held up and he sliced the other guy with a box cutter.

I suspect you are also significantly less likely to be involved in a crip vs blood gang war in Britain. Just sayin.

Canada for example, the fire arm vs populous rate is about the same as in the states, but due to the distribution and other factors, gun violence is much much smaller. The other interesting thing, 90% of the gun homicides in Canada are committed with illegal firearms, meaning they are guns that got into the country via illegal means, and were never sold in any Canadian gun store.

[1v0ry_k1ng]

I still see dont see anyone making a _good_ argument for owning a firearm...

the logic behind gun ownership is the name logic countires used to justify building up stocks of nuclear weapons: M.A.D or mutually assured destruction (if you shoot me ill shoot you back and we both die)

M.A.D works fine until you get someone unconcerned about their own saftey or just willing to take the risk, in which case all hell breaks loose. M.A.D makes the world a much safer place- right until it dosnt.

[Felix the Cat]

I still see dont see anyone making a _good_ argument for owning a firearm...

Because I have a right to defend myself and my home, and if I feel that owning a firearm is the best way to do so, then it's my right to own one.

It's really that simple. Forget the numbers, the statistics, the typical point-counter-point run of gun debates. It's much more fundamental: I can own a gun if I want to, you can't tell me I can't.

...also, by passing laws against gun ownership, you're using guns by proxy (the police) to force me not to have a gun. How ironic.

...and a third: there are three groups in society that have guns: the government, criminals, and law-abiding citizens. I trust one of those groups not to try to fuck me in some way. Can you guess which one it is?

[Acidd_UK]

I still see dont see anyone making a _good_ argument for owning a firearm...

Because I have a right to defend myself and my home, and if I feel that owning a firearm is the best way to do so, then it's my right to own one.

So what if you felt the best way to defend your home was with landmines and a 50 cal machinegun? Or an automatic granade launcher? Should you be allowed to privately own those weapons?