Split-Off Topic About Martial Arts and Their Competitions

[Panda]

SwiftSpear, do you think that Fedor and Randy will be able to fight smart enough to make it as fast-paced and suspenseful, as a traditional martial arts competition? I'm doubtful.

I think it is interesting to see how martial artists, such as Lesner and Couture, can learn more about themselves and other people by fighting a variety of different fighters, but I just don't see how this competition's set up doesn't, instead of being entertaining, mostly just leave you with a general feeling of awkwardness after watching it.

KaiserJ:

the most amazing things are done in a non-competitive environment where the primary guiding point is challenging oneself rather than pitting yourself against somebody else.

that been said, i still feel competition, even for an "athletic art form" if you will, is valid. even though it may not be the best representation of the art/sport, it still gives it a certain accessibility to people watching it, as well as an outlet for people who feel that they DO need to measure themselves against somebody else.

maybe you can set me straight on this as you seem knowledgeable... i've always assumed that competitive martial arts competitions started with wushu, and that those competitions involved sparring with others as well as individual demonstrations of technique. i suppose if that's true, then we're only really getting a watered down version of what a historical martial arts competition might be like, which personally i think is a shame, but probably happened because most UFC fans wouldn't have the patience or interest to watch a technique competition.

I've never been to a competition because I'm not really into that sort of thing, but the tests given in my classes were set up like a traditional martial arts competition. We broke boards, did kata (a set of choreographed, patterned movements), and did sparring. As Smoth said, my school was very traditional and not very much like a sports. I agree that a watered down version of a martial arts competition is a shame.

i figure my own interest in MMA comes from watching 70s and 80s movies about martial arts... enter the dragon, best of the best, kickboxer, bloodsport... a far cry from actually learning the martial arts themselves

Sorry, I've never seen those movies, but I have been watching more martial arts movies of late. Tai Chi master is a good one.

I used to hang out with a lot of Asian-Americans when I was a child and developed an interest in Asian culture (Even though I'm glad I'm not Asian. They have it tough.), including martial arts from that.

[smoth]

I think I have seen kickboxer but krystal you watch bloodsport with me, remember the one that I noted was fucking stupid? It had that guy with the GIGANTIC pecks.

[BigSteve]

what you get out martial arts depends on what you want out of it, if like Panda you want to do traditional martial arts, I.e kata, breaking boards then thats fine, but I wouldn't put any value in it if you get into a real fight, and being that martial arts are generally for self defence, that sucks!
I mean yeah you can tell people youre a black belt and can kick a hole in a board, but that doesnt matter when someone smacking you right in the face. It's intimidating, scary and painful, you dont experience that in traditioanl classes, where as if you went to a good mma gym youd learn the most effective techniques form a number of martial arts and learn to put them all together into one complete fighting style, while getting real fighting experience while doing it.

What makes you feel awkward after watching ufc panda btw?

[SwiftSpear]

I'm a huge wrestling and BJJ fan... so I don't really find it awkward or weird when fights go to the ground. Ground fighting is intensely technical, and if a martial artist ignores it, it's a huge vulnerability.

You don't always see the best kickboxing, or the best wrestling in MMA, but that's part of the draw... how does a fighter who has only trained a limited amount in a certain style stack up vs the veteran, can his training in that other martial focus that the other guy has only very limited experience in make up the difference?

[Machiosabre]

wasnt there this big tournament where people from all martial arts entered and some guy that would punch everyone in the balls won?

[SwiftSpear]

wasnt there this big tournament where people from all martial arts entered and some guy that would punch everyone in the balls won?

Probably not. That sounds like a wives tale from the startup of pitfighting.

[Crayfish]

Fedor and Randy both fight incredibly intelligently and are highly regarded not only in the UFC but also in other martial art styles.

Fedor has made brutal destruction into a science and has such an unorthodox striking style that I suspect he has invented it himself. I honestly believe he is the best unarmed fighter in the world at present. I've been trying to get myself into that mindset / skill set for a while (I'm the wrong shape for it though, tall and skinny).

Randy has a stupendous amount of martial arts and fighting experience. When you're watching these guys fight, you really are watching the best practical fighters in the world, people who've dedicated their lives and careers to fighting and who have consistently succeeded in the highest levels of competition.

Martial arts competitions are interesting in their own right as it's nice to see the flashy techniques and acrobatics in something like a capoiera roda, but the 'art' side definitely dominates these styles. In terms of fighting, it'd be nearly as much use to learn ballet. I would rather spend my time learning something useful and applicable that will help me to defend myself in a combat situation.

Watching the competitions that are kind of trying to pretend they're fighting while using ridiculous techniques on the other hand just looks silly. Taekwondo, can't take that seriously. Also some karate competitions. And most styles of kung fu when they try to actually use it for fighting instead of just looking cool.

Most of my own background is in brazilian jujitsu and MMA. I'd go straight to the BJJ if fighting an unskilled, unarmed fighter (the most common self defence concern, pub brawl etc.) as you can quickly control someone without doing any serious damage, thus avoiding harm to you and trouble with the police.

I've also done traditional martial arts including jujitsu (4 years; several competitions), karate (1 year), capoeira (2 years) and judo (2 years). I've been able to take ideas from each into my MMA game, but I can confidently say that each alone are far less than ideal for self defense, at least the way that I was taught them.

Muay thai (did this for 6 months) is useful, but then that's the main source of modern MMA striking anyway. Plus it's better to control an attacker than to break their face and risk killing them, from a legal perspective. Then again, if there are multiple opponents then BJJ isn't so useful.

It's interesting to train MMA as you often get stylists from other martial arts seeking a new challenge. It's reassuring to find out that at first, even larger, stronger, fitter guys with years of experience in martial arts are pretty easy to dominate. MMA is the complete game and allows you to play to others weaknesses, keeping outside of their comfort zone. The obvious example is to take a pure striker to the ground, a hugely neglected area in most martial arts.

[Panda]

I think I have seen kickboxer but krystal you watch bloodsport with me, remember the one that I noted was fucking stupid? It had that guy with the GIGANTIC pecks.

Oh, yeah. I didn't watch the whole movie, but that guy did have huge man boobs. He'd probably be a DD if he wore a bra.

what you get out martial arts depends on what you want out of it, if like Panda you want to do traditional martial arts, I.e kata, breaking boards then thats fine,

You left out sparring. Hand-to-hand fighting is a part of traditional martial arts.

but I wouldn't put any value in it if you get into a real fight, and being that martial arts are generally for self defence, that sucks!

Unless your really skilled, I wouldn't think that it would be especially helpful to you in a real fight either, but you're supposed to avoid that sort of thing anyway.

I mean yeah you can tell people youre a black belt and can kick a hole in a board, but that doesnt matter when someone smacking you right in the face. It's intimidating, scary and painful, you dont experience that in traditioanl classes, where as if you went to a good mma gym youd learn the most effective techniques form a number of martial arts and learn to put them all together into one complete fighting style, while getting real fighting experience while doing it.

To each their own.

Yes, I do realize that just doing kata does not prepare you for getting hit really hard in a fight, but not everyone wants to or should practice getting smacked around and there's nothing wrong with learning technique if you think it's healthy for you and will somehow sharpen your reflexes. Also, if you're generally not very strong to begin with, it may help you evade an attack long enough to where you can get away. There are some very good self-defense techniques out there, that even the smallest person might be able to effectively pull off if they practiced them a lot and absolutely had to use them. In my opinion, even if a person in this situation couldn't say that they would make a great street fighter or be able to participate in something like MMA, knowing some technique is better than not knowing anything at all.

Plus, I'm happy about practicing martial arts and learning the philosophies behind it even if I am paired up with a bigger opponent. It's fun to dodge them and I don't mind if I'm inadvertently lightly, kicked or punched sometimes. I'm pretty good at properly falling over, my extreme flexibility gives me some protection, and you can't be that whiny if you're going to practice martial arts.

What makes you feel awkward after watching ufc panda btw?

Well, it looks sloppy and reminds me more of a pro-wrestling show than anything else. Pro-wrestling can be sort-of like a soap opera, it's more showy than anything else and, unlike traditional competitions, doesn't appear to focus on anything more than seeing how well one person can beat the tar out of another person. For example, another focus of a competition could be to demonstrate that martial arts can be used to help others by encouraging people to be healthy, get along, and communicate with one another. There's more than one way to learn how to defend yourself through the use of martial arts and knowing these kinds of things can be helpful when you're trying to defend yourself.

[SwiftSpear]

Pro wrestling is pure entertainment, it's entirely fake. I'd argue that any other martial art you've ever seen done was probably performed more sloppily than what you see in an average pro MMA fight. It might not be visibly apparent, because the art form is more visually graceful, but MMA is a sport of extreme practicals. Something might not look amazing, or have visual flare, but at the end of the day your job is to beat that finely tuned machine across the ring from you who's spent his whole life practicing the skills he's going to try to use to make you lose. What you do has to be practical in the highest degree, it must work, it might not look amazing, but if it gets the job done better than your opponents moves then it's the obvious choice. There is very little room for sloppiness, the slightest mistake can definitely mean the difference between victory and defeat.

[Crayfish]

Good post :)

Swiftspear... living east of Surrey puts you somewhere in the region of Guildford...

(if I remember where Surrey is, which I might not).

Might be taking the small world philosophy too far but...

Don't train at Roger Gracie's old club by any chance? Know a guy called Andy Roberts?

Edit: even managed to get his name wrong.

[smoth]

boards don't hit back, application is more important than theory and skill is not the same as technique

trying to summarize, is this correct Steve?

[SwiftSpear]

Good post :)

Swiftspear... living east of Surrey puts you somewhere in the region of Guildford...

(if I remember where Surrey is, which I might not).

Might be taking the small world philosophy too far but...

Don't train at Roger Gracie's old club by any chance? Know a guy called Andy Hunter?

It's a joke. A bunch of UK springers discovered they lived in Surrey england around the same time on the forums, and they all put it in their location spot. I live in Canada. BC to be exact. East of Vancouver we also have a city named Surrey, and I live about 20 k east of there.

We don't have any prestigious gyms in my town. Infact, i don't know of a well known fighter who's come out of BC (most Canadian fighters are from Alberta, Quebec, or Ontario).

[Peet]

What makes it even more amusing is that there's an area near/in Surrey,BC called Guildford (the whole area is named after a chunk of the UK I assume).

[SwiftSpear]

What makes it even more amusing is that there's an area near/in Surrey,BC called Guildford (the whole area is named after a chunk of the UK I assume).

Ya, I was a bit baffled for a second, but I googled Roger Gracie, and his gym is in London.

[Panda]

Pro wrestling is pure entertainment, it's entirely fake.

I said that it reminded me of Pro wrestling because of how much it focuses on showing the audience that someone is beating someone else up and on entertaining people by highlighting that.

That focus makes it look more dirty than traditional martial arts.

I'd argue that any other martial art you've ever seen done was probably performed more sloppily than what you see in an average pro MMA fight.

Then you would be arguing under false assumptions because you don't know what martial arts I've seen performed.

I doubt that performances by a grandmaster and people who are members of the World Tae Kwon Do Federation and who are Olympic level athletes would perform more sloppily that what you see in an average pro MMA fight. A master of Tae Kwon Do would be very, very precise and execute his techniques more persistently in the same traditional way.

There is very little room for sloppiness, the slightest mistake can definitely mean the difference between victory and defeat.

The same goes for Tae Kwon Do sparring matches. The name Tae Kwon Do doesn't translate as the art of kicking and punching for nothing.

[SwiftSpear]

There is very little room for sloppiness, the slightest mistake can definitely mean the difference between victory and defeat.

The same goes for Tae Kwon Do sparring matches. The name Tae Kwon Do doesn't translate as the art of kicking and punching for nothing.

There's a much smaller community of practitioners, and far fewer of them practice as a full time profession. Also, asside from a few tiny pockets the competitive TKD scene is very amature. Most TKD practitioners spend as much or more time on forms and performance art as they do on sparring and sparring training.

Absolutely, it's a great martial art, but they fundimentally lack the size and pure genetic resources to reach the competitive level currently experianced by MMA. Acctually, there's a couple pro MMA fighters that started with TKD backgrounds and moved to more general MMA training. It's a much easier avenue to make money. Not to say that money is everything, but martial artists have to eat too.

[Crayfish]

What makes it even more amusing is that there's an area near/in Surrey,BC called Guildford (the whole area is named after a chunk of the UK I assume).

Ya, I was a bit baffled for a second, but I googled Roger Gracie, and his gym is in London.

Ah, fair enough! Thought the world could not possibly be the literal size of a tennis ball. His old gym was in Guildford, now he teaches in London. Nice guy.

[Imperium]

What makes it even more amusing is that there's an area near/in Surrey,BC called Guildford (the whole area is named after a chunk of the UK I assume).

Ya, I was a bit baffled for a second, but I googled Roger Gracie, and his gym is in London.

Ah, fair enough! Thought the world could not possibly be the literal size of a tennis ball. His old gym was in Guildford, now he teaches in London. Nice guy.

For future reference Guildford is in the Western part of Surrey; East of Surrey would be somewhere in Kent.

[Crayfish]

It's all 'down south' to me

[Panda]

There is very little room for sloppiness, the slightest mistake can definitely mean the difference between victory and defeat.

The same goes for Tae Kwon Do sparring matches. The name Tae Kwon Do doesn't translate as the art of kicking and punching for nothing.

There's a much smaller community of practitioners, and far fewer of them practice as a full time profession. Also, asside from a few tiny pockets the competitive TKD scene is very amature.

How big is MMA? TKD has 188 member nations. It appears to be pretty popular, almost as popular as Karate, where I come from and I don't come from one of the more populated areas of the country. If it's that popular in a place like Louisiana, I would think that it would be one of the more well-known martial arts.

Most TKD practitioners spend as much or more time on forms and performance art as they do on sparring and sparring training.

It appears to me as though TKD practitioners spend about half their time on sparring training.

Absolutely, it's a great martial art, but they fundimentally lack the size and pure genetic resources to reach the competitive level currently experianced by MMA.

TKD is considered to be and official sport in the olymipics. They couldn't be that lacking in resources: http://www.wtf.org/site/about_wtf/intro.htm

Maybe the reason why they don't beat each other's brains out the way MMA members do is because they don't believe in that sort of thing. A TKD master may not do that kind of thing because, over a long period of time, beating the tar out of each other can actually cause nerve damage and make the fighter less effective. Not running around frequently causing bodily harm to others, doesn't make a person a worse fighter, especially in this situation where we're referring to martial arts masters. That's something that would be more dependent upon the individual in question.

Acctually, there's a couple pro MMA fighters that started with TKD backgrounds and moved to more general MMA training. It's a much easier avenue to make money.

So? There are members from every fighting style who have moved to more general MMA training. That doesn't mean that a MMA fighter would be better than a TKD master.

Not to say that money is everything, but martial artists have to eat too.

They can find other ways of making money. The really good TKD martial artists, who practice martial arts for a living are usually teachers who can do a fine job of supporting themselves. Those teachers usually think that fighting in a MMA style tournament is silly.

I find your explanations to be unclear and think you need to add informative google links to your post so we can see what kind of information your basing your conclusions on.