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Another Article- and not about the boring Economic Crisis

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FLOZi
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Re: Another Article- and not about the boring Economic Crisis

Post by FLOZi »

What rubbish, everyone has a right to education, to any level they are capable of.
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Neddie
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Re: Another Article- and not about the boring Economic Crisis

Post by Neddie »

What rubbish, by maintaining inflexible views which are the result of subjective experience and your own socialization, the contributors to this thread have generated a monumental cluster of conflicting opinion applied to social theory the roots of which can be traced to the Enlightenment and now as then shall never come to a productive conclusion!

Smoth: I am expressing the right-wing liberal conceptualization of human nature which dictates that order derives from the efforts of individuals primarily and thus those who have low positions in social orders do so primarily due to their own failings. Philosophers from whence my view derives include Hobbes, Locke and Weber. I have come to this position partially due to my own experiences as an exceptional individual who has overcome some measure of self-perceived limitations.

Swift: I am expressing the left-wing liberal conceptualization of human nature which dictates that order derives from order and the positions of individuals are primarily dictated by their circumstances within preexisting order. Philosophers from whence my view derives include Rousseau, Kant and Marx. I have come to this position partially due to my own experiences as an exceptional individual who finds it highly difficult to advance socially and projects the fear that failure is structurally dictated.

Forboding: I am expressing the right-wing liberal conceptualization of human nature which dictates that order derives from the efforts of individuals primarily and thus those who have low positions in social orders do so primarily due to their own failings. Philosophers from whence my view derives include Hobbes, Locke and Burke. I have come to this position partially due to my own experiences as an exceptional individual aware of numerous personal flaws who has failed to overcome some measure of self-perceived limitations and projects the fear that failure to advance is due to personal flaw.

FLOZi: I am expressing the left-wing liberal conceptualization of human nature which dictates that order derives from order and the positions of individuals are primarily dictated by their circumstances within preexisting order. Philosophers from whence my view derives include Rousseau, Marx and Durkheim. I have come to this position partially due to my own experiences as an exceptional individual who has observed other exceptional individuals fail to advance socially.

Etcetera, etcetera...

Smoth reveals the material consequences of World Peace, Manored questions the direction of rational Capitalism, Panda exposes the fallacy of direction without dedication, Swift laments real socioeconomic barriers, Sleksa proposes situational relativism, Jasper notes the impact of local forces on individual development. Together, elements of your myriad viewpoints can establish a functional and evidentially supported world-view which none of you adhere to and individually none of you see. Instead, you each adhere to subjectively generated world-views which are in some clear manner either insufficient or inaccurate in their understanding of reality and sickeningly you assert them as truths of human nature. Since they are expressed as truths, any people who disagree with them are fundamentally wrong.

There is no positive outcome to a discussion of this nature, there is no inevitable resolution. The tension and disagreement persist until there is only one subject within the discussion, in other words, until there is no discussion at all and simply one person musing on their own individual views.
Jasper1984
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Re: Another Article- and not about the boring Economic Crisis

Post by Jasper1984 »

manored wrote:We cant speak about vertical mobility winhout first speaking about whenever vertical mobility is right or wrong, and in what circunstances, and in what measures. And that involves a painfull amount of other themes.
Vertical mobility is good whenever the people that rise are competent and moral as the positions they attained require. It is also good if it makes a rich boy a man who plumbs your house. I do not think it is that hard. How could accessible education make many people rise who wouldn't otherwise, but yet, are somehow incompetent? If that would happen, it would have been because the people that caused it made mistakes, not because of the education.
About the 'painful amount of other themes', if you can talk about links to other topics, go ahead. But don't just talk about other topics at random. (Reading back, no-one in particular started about population control and peace.)
CarRepairer wrote:What a terrible idea. If college is a natural choice because it was free and your parents went through it, this makes it a natural choice for everyone else where you live. College is not for everyone, in fact not even for most people. By making this luxury so natural (it's a luxury, you don't need it to live, it costs many resources to create and maintain a college from building it to hiring professors) its effectiveness is greatly diminshed.
It being free doesn't mean i think they should just let anyone in anywhere. Just let anyone have a good chance of getting in. Let them in when they are smart enough to learn the study at hand. That makes it not naturally for everyone, and indeed not everyone tries to go into universities.
Many European countries do this, and i do not think the effectiveness really goes down. Universities are a lot less 'prestigious', but then that is a fashion item, that is luxery. The universities also have a larger spread how good the students are, but i think the top isn't any lower because of it. And, i guess, the first year of hard studies do have a lot of dropouts, but hey, its the cheapest year to drop out of, must separate the wheat from the chaff.
I could say this from experience in the university of Utrecht, although the physics department isn't the biggest, of course.
The third point, is that you say it is a luxury. In large part it is not, society needs educated people, do i even need to say where? Why should the people who happen to be born rich fill these roles, maybe many are better off in easier jobs. For the part of which it is luxury, well, it is culture, and people value culture. You might see museums and such as 'luxury' but they are the memory of mankind.

@SwiftSpear: sounds like that sucks. Are rooms for rent outside campus/just taking the hit of 1.5 hours travel. What is the cost of different options of those? Any options in which you can utilize the travel time for study? (Like the train.) Maybe you can work and save for school, but as you have noticed, the economy is rather weak. The dollar halving is in the range of possibilities, imo.

Note: previous post, was made during this one, not (yet) taken into consideration.
Jasper1984
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Re: Another Article- and not about the boring Economic Crisis

Post by Jasper1984 »

@neddiedrow: I am of the opinion that vertical mobility is fair, and good for society. Meaning, people on average can have a better chance of happiness, or whatever their goal is.

I guess, that many people do have knee-jerk reactions about this. Feelings of authority of the establishment, feelings that success would be less grandiose when it is easier. Some ask 'and i have to pay for it?' maybe because they would be jealous that they didn't get it, maybe because of a libertarian side to their opinion.

But if they try to find what they value, and what the interactions are that can get in the way or help that goal, i can respect their opinion. It shouldn't be about 'isms and emotion, it should be about how it affects people.
If we stick to that, i do think discussion about that can help, it doesn't really matter if we end in agreement either. But i guess that we should try to overcome observations about human nature from our subjective point of view.
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CarRepairer
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Re: Another Article- and not about the boring Economic Crisis

Post by CarRepairer »

FLOZi wrote:What rubbish, everyone has a right to education, to any level they are capable of.
Having a right to something does not imply that others must pay for you to obtain it.
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SwiftSpear
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Re: Another Article- and not about the boring Economic Crisis

Post by SwiftSpear »

neddiedrow wrote:Together, elements of your myriad viewpoints can establish a functional and evidentially supported world-view which none of you adhere to and individually none of you see. Instead, you each adhere to subjectively generated world-views which are in some clear manner either insufficient or inaccurate in their understanding of reality and sickeningly you assert them as truths of human nature. Since they are expressed as truths, any people who disagree with them are fundamentally wrong.
To be fair, I haven't laid almost any cards on the table yet. I usually start with a stereotypical side in a debate, it pulls in the hardliners to that side to my support, and it baits the opposition into weakening their argument by trapping themselves in strawmen which I can then expound upon and pull the whole discussion to a higher level.

I highly respect the request for a more concrete and logical discussion, but I've found that the vast majority of the time you have to pull people into them, most people can't make the leap out of personal situation to well constructed worldview without a bit of hand holding.

Ultimately though, even if we get smart enough to raise the tone of the discussion, there are still fundamental stopping blocks higher up anyways, granted though, that it's much easier to address a plethora of problems that plague many people at that level, even if ultimately an objective conclusion is elusive.
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PicassoCT
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Re: Another Article- and not about the boring Economic Crisis

Post by PicassoCT »

neddiedrow wrote:What rubbish, by maintaining inflexible views which are the result of subjective experience and your own socialization, the contributors to this thread have generated a monumental cluster of conflicting opinion applied to social theory the roots of which can be traced to the Enlightenment and now as then shall never come to a productive conclusion!

Smoth: I am expressing the right-wing liberal conceptualization of human nature which dictates that order derives from the efforts of individuals primarily and thus those who have low positions in social orders do so primarily due to their own failings. Philosophers from whence my view derives include Hobbes, Locke and Weber. I have come to this position partially due to my own experiences as an exceptional individual who has overcome some measure of self-perceived limitations.

Swift: I am expressing the left-wing liberal conceptualization of human nature which dictates that order derives from order and the positions of individuals are primarily dictated by their circumstances within preexisting order. Philosophers from whence my view derives include Rousseau, Kant and Marx. I have come to this position partially due to my own experiences as an exceptional individual who finds it highly difficult to advance socially and projects the fear that failure is structurally dictated.

Forboding: I am expressing the right-wing liberal conceptualization of human nature which dictates that order derives from the efforts of individuals primarily and thus those who have low positions in social orders do so primarily due to their own failings. Philosophers from whence my view derives include Hobbes, Locke and Burke. I have come to this position partially due to my own experiences as an exceptional individual aware of numerous personal flaws who has failed to overcome some measure of self-perceived limitations and projects the fear that failure to advance is due to personal flaw.

FLOZi: I am expressing the left-wing liberal conceptualization of human nature which dictates that order derives from order and the positions of individuals are primarily dictated by their circumstances within preexisting order. Philosophers from whence my view derives include Rousseau, Marx and Durkheim. I have come to this position partially due to my own experiences as an exceptional individual who has observed other exceptional individuals fail to advance socially.

Etcetera, etcetera...

Smoth reveals the material consequences of World Peace, Manored questions the direction of rational Capitalism, Panda exposes the fallacy of direction without dedication, Swift laments real socioeconomic barriers, Sleksa proposes situational relativism, Jasper notes the impact of local forces on individual development. Together, elements of your myriad viewpoints can establish a functional and evidentially supported world-view which none of you adhere to and individually none of you see. Instead, you each adhere to subjectively generated world-views which are in some clear manner either insufficient or inaccurate in their understanding of reality and sickeningly you assert them as truths of human nature. Since they are expressed as truths, any people who disagree with them are fundamentally wrong.

There is no positive outcome to a discussion of this nature, there is no inevitable resolution. The tension and disagreement persist until there is only one subject within the discussion, in other words, until there is no discussion at all and simply one person musing on their own individual views.
Bravo, da Capo, Neddie, there has indeed no Discussion existed before you sumed it up. But why so web-culturcritical? There is Harvest beyond lulz in this viewpoints, knowledge to be gathered, interesting reactions, once you shake the foundations of Truth..

Unfortunatly, you alsp proved there is Room for Improvment..there shoulde be a "Sum-It-Up in 25 Lines-Wiki" on Top of every ForumThreadpage... with a History... let´s call it a Information-Needie..
Spampost that to the Php-boards, and tell them Picasso send ya ;)

Overexpectations on the Intertubecommunication is to be expected..
Philosopher trolled with Comdifficulties, Techotroll delivered a new phone line. ;)
tombom
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Re: Another Article- and not about the boring Economic Crisis

Post by tombom »

what a load of wank
manored
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Re: Another Article- and not about the boring Economic Crisis

Post by manored »

Jasper1984 wrote:
manored wrote:We cant speak about vertical mobility winhout first speaking about whenever vertical mobility is right or wrong, and in what circunstances, and in what measures. And that involves a painfull amount of other themes.
Vertical mobility is good whenever the people that rise are competent and moral as the positions they attained require. It is also good if it makes a rich boy a man who plumbs your house. I do not think it is that hard. How could accessible education make many people rise who wouldn't otherwise, but yet, are somehow incompetent? If that would happen, it would have been because the people that caused it made mistakes, not because of the education.
About the 'painful amount of other themes', if you can talk about links to other topics, go ahead. But don't just talk about other topics at random. (Reading back, no-one in particular started about population control and peace.)
I was justifying why I went off-topic, not really making the questions.

Neddiedrow is right tough, no conclusion will arise of this, different views of the world can hardly be conciliated with a discussion in the internet :) and often not conciliated under any conditions at all.
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Re: Another Article- and not about the boring Economic Crisis

Post by Panda »

neddiedrow wrote:What rubbish, by maintaining inflexible views which are the result of subjective experience and your own socialization, the contributors to this thread have generated a monumental cluster of conflicting opinion applied to social theory the roots of which can be traced to the Enlightenment and now as then shall never come to a productive conclusion!
It is possible that engaging in the discussion itself is what is most valuable here, and that reaching a general conclusion is not.
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FLOZi
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Re: Another Article- and not about the boring Economic Crisis

Post by FLOZi »

@ neddie:

Nice post, but it's based on two assumptions, both flawed.

1. Human nature is firm, unmalleable, and immemorial.

2. All of our viewpoints are equally valid, despite some being based on observation of the majority of western industrial citizens, and some on a peculiar minority.
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Sleksa
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Re: Another Article- and not about the boring Economic Crisis

Post by Sleksa »

CarRepairer wrote:
What a terrible idea. If college is a natural choice because it was free and your parents went through it, this makes it a natural choice for everyone else where you live.
It being free doesn't mean i think they should just let anyone in anywhere. Just let anyone have a good chance of getting in. Let them in when they are smart enough to learn the study at hand. That makes it not naturally for everyone, and indeed not everyone tries to go into universities.
True, about 30-40% of the people from my primary school went to colleges, and ~40-50% to vocational schools, with the rest going to business schools or nowhere.

The main point here is that if you are smart, but come from a poor family, you still have the ability to recieve education.
It doesnt automatically let everyone come into schools from one door and come out from another with college papers at hand.

You have to remember that to enter a college one needs to have good grades, since colleges usually take quotas of people inside(mine does ~150 a year), they take the people with the best grades. Those who dont get in can apply to another college with lower entrance levels, or go to vocational schools, which usually take in almost everyone.
College is not for everyone, in fact not even for most people.
Information isnt for everyone? I fail to see how obtaining education could ever be a negative thing. and that's primarily what college is about.
By making this luxury so natural (it's a luxury, you don't need it to live, it costs many resources to create and maintain a college from building it to hiring professors) its effectiveness is greatly diminshed.
The resources to create and maintain dont come from thin air, finland still has a high taxation, which allows to upkeep this kind of a educational system.

And i fail to see how the effectiveness of the colleges are diminished by the way they are created and maintained in finland, especially since we are quite high in global rankings on different studies, like the pisa-test.
Finland, with an average of 563 score points, was the highest-performing country on the PISA 2006 science scale.
source-http://www.oecd.org/document/2/0,3343,e ... _1,00.html


Sleksa proposes situational relativism
Yes, because i've seen this system work in finland and scandinavia, where income levels are roughly the same, and everyone is entitled to same services, no matter how rich their family is or what their race is.

my goal wasnt to express my thoughts as the word of god, but rather as a option in preventing inequality in the society, with my subjective observations from societies in finland and scandinavia.
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Zpock
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Re: Another Article- and not about the boring Economic Crisis

Post by Zpock »

School is overrated, I like how someone put it "why sit and listen to shitty teachers all day when you could just log on to teh internets and listen to the best", whatever and whenever you want. And everybody learns on their jobs by experience 95% of what they use anyway. I wish it was possible to just get rid of the whole thing except the basics and just put people to work at an age of 14 or something (including fancy jobs). Average peak age is 22 so it sucks your basically in a holding pen until you get past that point, imagine what you could do starting doing real stuff and racking up actual experience a few years ahead of it instead.

Oh well, it's probably just gonna die naturally when we get artificial learning and there's no point at all.
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Re: Another Article- and not about the boring Economic Crisis

Post by Scratch »

Just as the industrial revolution did to the world what no one could imagine when it began, this current time has begun to change in ways no one can currently imagine.

Contest this if you can.

Fundamentally there's nothing wrong with the US economy or the world economy. The real problem is FEAR. Everyone it seems, is afraid not only their money will be worthless, but are beginning to realize that America may LOSE THE NEXT WAR.

I shouldn't have to elaborate on how current circumstances may lead to this eventuality.
tombom
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Re: Another Article- and not about the boring Economic Crisis

Post by tombom »

Scratch wrote:Just as the industrial revolution did to the world what no one could imagine when it began, this current time has begun to change in ways no one can currently imagine.

Contest this if you can.

Fundamentally there's nothing wrong with the US economy or the world economy. The real problem is FEAR. Everyone it seems, is afraid not only their money will be worthless, but are beginning to realize that America may LOSE THE NEXT WAR.

I shouldn't have to elaborate on how current circumstances may lead to this eventuality.
you#re a total moron
manored
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Re: Another Article- and not about the boring Economic Crisis

Post by manored »

Economy is imaterial, so imaterial things such as world-level fear of economy break-down with everone trying to save thenselves is a problem for it.
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SwiftSpear
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Re: Another Article- and not about the boring Economic Crisis

Post by SwiftSpear »

manored wrote:Economy is imaterial, so imaterial things such as world-level fear of economy break-down with everone trying to save thenselves is a problem for it.
Economy isn't immaterial. The economy is the system responsible for controlling company, employment, and distribution. Economy is the middle point for interfacing massive entities with each other creating the smallest friction possible.

It's not easy to obeserve, but it isn't immaterial. That's like calling the galaxy immaterial.
Jasper1984
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Re: Another Article- and not about the boring Economic Crisis

Post by Jasper1984 »

@tomtom: please don't quote total morons.

Economy, in a way, is for a large part a bunch of numbers in accounts, the control system for the space shuttle also consists of manipulations of numbers in computers. Both crash if the 'software' fails.
But economic systems have to solve a much more complicated problem. And you cant just make a function ShuttleFireThruster() .. No, it has to at least partially emergent from freely operating persons.
Economic systems needs to convert apples into oranges to be practical. It needs money. And a way for regulating how much value things have. am willing to believe that free market works well for many products, but i doubt it works for stocks and such.

I have the feeling that there is disbelief that the 'material economy' could really suffer from the 'numbers economy' malfunctioning. They feel like it is just fear, and there is no reason they should stop producing stuff and consuming what other produce. But then, if the shuttles computers fail, there is no physical reason the thrusters wouldn't fire. Time to do some parts manually until the software is patched. (Or perhaps redone? It was put together hap-hazardly.)

Shit, now i have gone off topic too :/
Zpock wrote:School is overrated, I like how someone put it "why sit and listen to shitty teachers all day when you could just log on to teh internets and listen to the best", whatever and whenever you want.
You underestimate schools. Many schools actually do send students to work environments, to learn while they do work. And not all schools are all about 'holding pens', many teach skills with the hands. I think schools are for most people, just some of them feel out of placed when they aren't using their hands. Schools are good for a more efficient workforce. And this is good not because i like work done, but because i like time off. Also, you might not have a good estimate of who 'the best' are.
Scratch
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Re: Another Article- and not about the boring Economic Crisis

Post by Scratch »

on a second read my points might be pretty far off for most people to relate to current events.

FEAR: Overpriced and illegitamate housing situations caused deflation of the housing market through (relatively) worthless stock. From what I gather, alternative stocks still remained strong in relation to their respective base values. However, markets of distant relation are being affected because people are afraid of their stocks tumbling in general so they all cash in. Examples are the price of oil and automotive sectors, all secondary to housing.

Like I said these other markets were still solid but as a whole people got scared and jumped from what they percieve to be a sinking boat. Where is the bottom? There is none- the federal reserve chairman himself said the american economy is 'fundamentally strong'.

A false growth situation was created, and when people found out, it created a general panick which we see in the news.

The worst thing is though, foreigners have purchased large stocks in these companies and they will now invest in other foreign countries. This is a change to the way things have been for the last 60 years. This strengthens foreign currencies.

WAR

you call me a moron, when all I'm telling you is both then Yen and Euro are gaining against the US dollar as we speak, and the rest of the world will be forced to deal without the US economy which they have already begun to do.

The US economy is the remnant of the war economy. The war economy thrived on foreign exports. This is how the US maintained such a budget deficit since WW2 on by supplying commodities to countries hopelessly dependent on it.

This is no longer the case. I believe the current US economy will starting now, begin pulling back to the weaker pre-war economy and this will set up foreign countries in a position to start a war in an equal, rather than lesser, economic position in comparison to the US. And as many economists predict, the European Union, who by the way, has by many counts a larger GDP than the US, will overcome the strength of the U.S. dollar and henceforth may become the next world superpower.
Jasper1984
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Re: Another Article- and not about the boring Economic Crisis

Post by Jasper1984 »

Scratch, there is a good reason they called you a moron for one: 'Another Article- and not about the boring Economic Crisis' It isn't even about that..
Scratch wrote:you call me a moron, when all I'm telling you is both then Yen and Euro are gaining against the US dollar as we speak, and the rest of the world will be forced to deal without the US economy which they have already begun to do.
The earlier post you got called moron for didn't mention either the Yen or Euro.
And you say there is nothing wrong with the American and world economy, and then you say 'a false growth situation was created' how is that not bad?
The printing of dollars and dollar inflation are also bad. I have heard of numerous sources that Americans simply have too much debt. Isn't that bad? You completely miss these issues.
How about speculation, that seems to have been a large factor in the increase of oil price, isn't that bad?
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