SaturnV is banned. That is all.

SaturnV is banned. That is all.

Post just about everything that isn't directly related to Spring here!

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saturnV
Posts: 107
Joined: 03 Dec 2020, 07:58

SaturnV is banned. That is all.

Post by saturnV »

Split.
Soon (if not now already) all normal people will stop posting here.
To me it seems that already happend, several years ago.
Already In the last 5-8 years many games were discontinued.
Also look at the decline of the page-count of the yearly random-WIP threads. It is not a recent trend.
the BA debacle, how afaict that has catapaulted everyone with connections to BA 10 off the forums
BA10 never used the forum much.
From the beginning they had pushed for discord.

It is however a good example for the "broken windows" problem:
When gameplay of BA was discussed, too many people who did not even play BA raided the discussions. Despite not playing BA, they still wanted to give their opinions on it. Or they posted how in general gameplay/balance/updates should work.
Or they just wanted to say that they do not care. :roll:
That made discussions tiresome and in the end the actual BA players just stopped posting.

Or take the posts by Forbording Angle and PicassoCT.
The first repeatedly made wrong assumptions about how BA's gameplay and engine code worked. He vandalized threads by abusing mod-powers. (for some reasons he could moderate in the BA-subforum)
The second posted gibberish jokes or insults, I honestly do not know what he means half the time. Both made forum and discord unreadable.
Actually this not limited to BA threads, much of spring is very straining to read because of similiar problems.


The #main chat of the lobby died due to similiar problems when zeroK automated their advertisement spam.
I have heard that the #moddev channel suffered a similiar fate when the shitposting and memes took over.
Was is it ever tried to moderate these chats?
FLOZi wrote: 27 Feb 2021, 14:39 In the past, constant complaints that moderation is too strict and far too lenient, depending on which case works better for the troll in question at the time in question.
You make it sound like there is a contradiction. To me it simply reads as if moderation was not neutral.
I wish I could have heard from some of the developers and other current major figures in this community.
Who would those figures be and what should they say?
I look through the list of Spring games and notice: Except for Metal Factions and Tech Anni, all are dead. Their developers left long ago.
The interest in those games is minimal on the forum. raaar is posting all alone in his subforum since the beginning. Tech Anni is considered yet another "cancerous alphabet soup mod", why should those players or devs be active in the forum?
Instead of supporting the active games, there was lots of talk about already dead games or vaporware. Or BA.
Similiar, engine devs left or never were very vocal.
ivand
Posts: 287
Joined: 27 Jun 2007, 17:05

Re: Spring's Broken Windows

Post by ivand »

Funny you showed up in the thread, that started as attributed mostly to you and so-called "Balanced Annihilation Developer":
ivand wrote: ...but notice the forum is filled up with troll posts from a very few individuals...
And of course you couldn't resist putting your BA-drama fingers in every pie.

To continue broken windows theory, I see that moderator leniency unfortunately persists and those who have long deserved their lifetime ban ticket continue breaking glass.

Moderators/Admins/Owners: I don't know what you guys expect. This is really puzzling. Do you really believe that giving 100th warning will make someone change their behavior? The reality proves it doesn't happen. More like the other way around: impunity of the one lures others.

This place lost a lot of activity. The last engine dev left, frustrated by the resistance to make legacy->104+ changes on the game side, the changes that take one day at most and persistence to spam hundreds posts with absurd accusations instead.

Please state your goals clearly so others can set their expectations and decide if they have reasons to stay.
saturnV
Posts: 107
Joined: 03 Dec 2020, 07:58

Re: Spring's Broken Windows

Post by saturnV »

This thread links to my posts, you attack me in this thread, and now you act suprised that I post here?
This place lost a lot of activity.
....years before I had started posting. :roll:
Years before botflags were invented, years before spring 104.
See the project subforums, when were the last postings, when were the last releases?
The last engine dev left, frustrated by the resistance to make legacy->104+ changes on the game side
Do you mean BA?
I will just link this older post instead of repeating yet again: viewtopic.php?p=597968#p597968
Why does this even still matter, the botflag system was put in place excactly as the engine developers had wished.

Why are you still so focused on BA anyway? It is one of many Spring games.
Why is nobody talking what happend with the dozen other games that used to exist?
The only reason why a game with old lowpoly models, shitty textures and 2 active battlerooms still mattered is because all the other games failed.

Did you read the posts by Master-Athmos viewtopic.php?p=597268#p597268 and his old threads?
The hate he got when annoucing his game did not come from TA-players. It was the "other" gamedevelopers.

gajop: 1 month banned issue for constant drama & trolling. next will be perma
raaar
Metal Factions Developer
Posts: 959
Joined: 20 Feb 2010, 12:17

Re: Spring's Broken Windows

Post by raaar »

saturnV wrote: 05 Apr 2021, 01:32 Did you read the posts by Master-Athmos viewtopic.php?p=597268#p597268 and his old threads?
The hate he got when annoucing his game did not come from TA-players. It was the "other" gamedevelopers.
I doubt this. I don't get that information from his actual post. What's the original thread?

saturnV wrote: 05 Apr 2021, 01:32
This place lost a lot of activity.
....years before I had started posting. :roll:
Years before botflags were invented, years before spring 104.
The decline in activity happened throughout the past decade for a variety of reasons, including drama on the forum.

The reason for this thread is that basically you and Ares' recurring posts are off. There's no conspiracy against BA. The hostility you get comes in response to the drama you keep reviving yourselves (related to the 103 restriction and BA10), from which the community moved on.

The excessive and repetitive negativity drives people off the forum. Every time you cross the line between "concerned member" and troll helps further the decline.

If your intent is constructive, demotivating people who did and still do useful stuff regarding spring (helping users, updating wiki and various other development activities) is a really dumb move.
saturnV
Posts: 107
Joined: 03 Dec 2020, 07:58

Re: Spring's Broken Windows

Post by saturnV »

raaar wrote: 07 Apr 2021, 04:54
saturnV wrote: 05 Apr 2021, 01:32 Did you read the posts by Master-Athmos viewtopic.php?p=597268#p597268 and his old threads?
The hate he got when annoucing his game did not come from TA-players. It was the "other" gamedevelopers.
I doubt this. I don't get that information from his actual post. What's the original thread?
You know, you could just look yourself? Master-Athmos wrote:
WIth that [refering to "toxic community"] not being an exclusivity to *A focused guys. I still vividly remember the flak I got when presenting Maximum Annihilation - I actually had a look at the old topics a few weeks ago and while moderation did remove the worst parts, the instant derailing is still there.
So the Maximum Annihilation V1.0 thread:
viewtopic.php?f=79&t=14352
Read these posts and think if you would like such replies in YOUR game's thread?
SpikedHelmet wrote: 23 Mar 2008, 00:03 This is yet another sad day for Spring.

--
I think for the most part, most people who do this (make TA forks and spoons) do it thinking "hey, maybe this'll become the next AA, and then I'll be famous!"
Really, though, any half-baked moron could make a *A mod (and many half-baked morons have) by tweaking some stats. But in the end its a waste of your time and a waste of ours.
SpikedHelmet, MC: Legacy & Spring 1944 Developer, think a new modder introducing his mod is a sad day for Spring. Implies that people make mods "to be famous"..instead of just....for fun maybe? Or to learn programming? Why is it his business anyway, nobody forced him to play these mods or read their threads.


rattle wrote: 23 Mar 2008, 02:36 Because it's fun to bash the alphabet soup/stat tweaking mods.
another post:
Go Make Yourself Useful And Create Something Original├óÔÇ×┬ó
rattle, Damned Developer, enjoys bashing TA mods.

Fanger wrote: 24 Mar 2008, 02:48 Look Im not trying to knock this mod, or anything like that.. but why was this made, and why does it not use BA's title. If this is the "successor" to BA, which was the "successor" to AA.. can we stop making up new names.. could we just stick with the original name..

DAMN YOU CAYDR..

Didnt tired say his mod was the "successor" to BA.. when did BA stop being developed..

WTF is with this shit...

another post:
I dont want people to fork EE, because that would be even more of a waste than a fork of TA, irregardless of what this mod offers, I highly doubt it will get more than few games in during a week if even and thusly I again dont see the point..
Fanger, Expand & Exterminate Developer, does not understand why people make new mods and it is waste anyway and will not get more than a few games during a week. (Nowadays most spring games would be happy to get a few matches during a month...)
Forboding Angel wrote: 24 Mar 2008, 12:53 /facepalm


/stab
/stab
/stab
Forboding Angel, Evolution RTS Developer, once again expresses his hatred for TA-games.
Forboding Angel wrote: 25 Mar 2008, 15:10 The thing that bugs me is the fact that while whooptie do you are doing your own mod...

All you are doing is pushing numbers around, while you have big huge aspirations, ...

You as everybody else and wanting to recreate TA in your image (as it were). That's what is /facepalm about it.
You aren't going to be adding models, textures, etc.
...
I'm willing to bet you aren't even going to be using CEG's, much less cegtags. It's just annoying. You going to use any LUA with that? Prolly not any more than including widgets.
He dislikes people "pushing numbers around." The irony, that a few years later, would try to push some numbers around in BA.
Why is it bad and facepalm-triggering when people create their own TA-variants? Dont like it, dont play it.
What is with all the dismissive assumptions about a new mod/modder? Why should a new modder NOT be using CEGs or Lua? Why so quick to judge?
Why should mods NOT be adding new models or? As far I know, basically every TA-mod adds some unique units.
Actually, Krogoth86/Master than has to explain that he did in fact already add new effects and models.
(Again, the irony that a decade later all CEGs in his own mod are very basic (saw none using multiple stages or the math functions) and he had all his Lua written by others.)

...and so on and on.
Keep it in mind that according to Master, the thread had already gotten moderated and some posts removed. So originally it must have been even worse. There are more threads and posts like that. Certain old users just enjoyed bashing new people and their projects and it seems that was somewhat accepted. As far I can see, this culture continued well into the present years.

It is excactly the "broken windows theory:"
They spam an unwanted thread (like new mod release) with angry replies or expressions of disinterest.

That drones out all the replies by people who actually want to discuss the topic. Seems familiar? The same happend when the BA9/10/engine situation was discussed: So many people who did not even play BA, suddendly had to voice their opinion on this game that they never play. Or they just want to post some jokes.
Or Aquanim (zero-K developer), says he never plays BA, registered on this forum just to post about BA: search.php?author_id=32032&sr=posts and of course he already brought an opinion.
Last edited by saturnV on 05 Jun 2021, 08:25, edited 1 time in total.
saturnV
Posts: 107
Joined: 03 Dec 2020, 07:58

Re: Spring's Broken Windows

Post by saturnV »

raaar wrote: 07 Apr 2021, 04:54 The hostility you get comes in response to the drama you keep reviving yourselves (related to the 103 restriction and BA10), from which the community moved on.
I did not introduce the bans and restrictions of old engines: those are source of drama. Do not shot the messenger.

I am surprised that you supported the restrictions, since you are a game developer yourself. It surprises me that any gamedeveloper or player at all supported the restrictions and bans. Now I read this new thread and your post there suddenly has a different view:
viewtopic.php?p=598555#p598555
raaar wrote: 29 May 2021, 16:25..
2) Preserve player base. I can change to the newer version at a later stage.
Players with decade-old toasters or low end laptops will eventually upgrade in a few years
..
4) Obstacles/reservations
- does the change break compatibility for some players?
- does the change break compatibility with existing content?
- more performant ways of doing things may be harder to build on and maintain

5) Expectations / miscellaneous thoughts

- keep the basics working : current broadly compatible engines being available for download/use on the official infrastructure
^---------IMPORTANT

- in case of compatibility breakage (GL dependency or deprecating legacy formats), allow maintenance branches so we can eventually fix/improve some things and have new versions of old engines available to download from the official infrastructure
Do you understand that these things you have reservations about, had already happend to BA?
BA lost players because of broken compatibility.
You want engines available for download/use on the official infrastructure? BA wanted that, too.
You want to preserve players with toaster-computers but when BA wanted the same, then it is "drama."
For you, these things are maybe theoretical situations that might happen in a far future. For other games, these things have already happend and they were killed by it.
raaar
Metal Factions Developer
Posts: 959
Joined: 20 Feb 2010, 12:17

Re: Spring's Broken Windows

Post by raaar »

Ok, but those quotes are from 2008.That's over 13 years ago. I'm pretty sure that today, most of the people quoted would either be nicer or at least refrain from posting.

The fact that Forb hated on TA-derived works in the past doesn't imply that the contributions to BA 10 were done with bad intent. In my opinion the reception he got was unfairly negative.

I don't think there's any problem with people posting the ocasional joke or old players/devs posting once or twice to give some 2 cents.
saturnV wrote: 05 Jun 2021, 08:11
raaar wrote: 07 Apr 2021, 04:54 The hostility you get comes in response to the drama you keep reviving yourselves (related to the 103 restriction and BA10), from which the community moved on.
I did not introduce the bans and restrictions of old engines: those are source of drama. Do not shot the messenger.

I am surprised that you supported the restrictions, since you are a game developer yourself. It surprises me that any gamedeveloper or player at all supported the restrictions and bans. Now I read this new thread and your post there suddenly has a different view:
viewtopic.php?p=598555#p598555

(...)

Do you understand that these things you have reservations about, had already happend to BA?
BA lost players because of broken compatibility.
You want engines available for download/use on the official infrastructure? BA wanted that, too.
You want to preserve players with toaster-computers but when BA wanted the same, then it is "drama."
For you, these things are maybe theoretical situations that might happen in a far future. For other games, these things have already happend and they were killed by it.
I did not support the restrictions, I was ambivalent at best. What I criticized was the overreaction to the restrictions from the BA community for a number of reasons I've explained over and over. They could have lived with them or adapted, the overreaction did way more damage than the restrictions themselves.
saturnV
Posts: 107
Joined: 03 Dec 2020, 07:58

Re: Spring's Broken Windows

Post by saturnV »

raaar wrote: 05 Jun 2021, 13:57I'm pretty sure that today, most of the people quoted would either be nicer or at least refrain from posting.
My impression is, that this did sadly not improve.
The hate on TA-mods is deeper than a "ocasional joke" and continues to present times.
Also did those posts read like jokes to you?
The fact that Forb hated on TA-derived works in the past doesn't imply that the contributions to BA 10 were done with bad intent. In my opinion the reception he got was unfairly negative.
It is not just him.
For the sake of simplicity he can stand as example of many non-TA-modders like to call themself actual "real developers" and hate on "TA-scriptkiddies."

He hated on BA while working on BA, what more is there to say.
I am undecided if it was bad intent, ignorance, lack of technical knowledge, or disinterest in players and game. Maybe a bit of everything. A typical situation:
Forboding Angel wrote: 27 May 2018, 23:53Random damage numbers may be all fine and good in a *A game, but in evo I have very painstaking damage/hp balance/amounts.
All see these posts following his suggestion on how to balance BA commanders: viewtopic.php?p=582883#p582883
He does not know the math: Therefore BA numbers must be "random." But in Evo they are finely tuned. :roll:
BA10 showed several such situations: He did not understand something and based his changes on that. Then his misunderstanding turns to hate. He does not understand it, so it is impossible to imagine that anyone else ever understood it or maybe actually tried things out or put thought into it. That is the kind of ignorance that ticked people of.

Take the famous "ruin BA so people will play Evo" commit message. Supposedly the message was ironic or a joke.
Less focus has been given to the actual changes in that commit:
Was breaking the widget ironic, too? Was removing the author of a script a joke?
Someone had pointed out these things in a github commit - and FA denies having done it. Despite that it was right there, for all to read, the changes marked in green and red.
I did not support the restrictions, I was ambivalent at best.
What positive sides did you see?
Did you think these positive sides would outweight how the most popular spring game would be affected?
Let's see how ambivalent you will be when your game is affected.
Or when your concerns will be labeled as drama.
Or when you are forced to fork your own game because engine developers decide you did not update fast enough and give your game to someone who never played it and openly hates it.
They could have lived with them or adapted, the overreaction did way more damage than the restrictions themselves.
What overreaction? BA10 was taken BA into a new direction. Everybody knows that BA gameplay is meant to be stable and BA also had certain pratices like how/how often releases are done. BA10 violated all that and showed no signs of improvement or will to find a compromise.
Players did adapt: They continued to play BA9.
When playing BA9 was ""restricted"" they formed a team to run a new lobby and later made BA11.

Engine developers have said that they do not care about players, and that the engine does not even need players to continue. What signals does that send, how many more windows can one break?

User was banned. Repeated felony 1/2, ignoring previous warnings, etc. (Silentwings)
ivand
Posts: 287
Joined: 27 Jun 2007, 17:05

Re: Spring's Broken Windows

Post by ivand »

My impression is that you get withdrawal symptoms in case you don't see shit boiling, so you instigate the drama.
Choose your words carefully:
saturnV wrote: 05 Apr 2021, 01:32 gajop: 1 month banned issue for constant drama & trolling. next will be perma
P.S. Oh lol, thanks Silentwings. One idiot less. :lol:
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