Why spring doesnt qualify as an open source project - Page 3

Why spring doesnt qualify as an open source project

Various things about Spring that do not fit in any of the other forums listed below, including forum rules.

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hollowsoul
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Joined: 06 Jun 2006, 19:49

Post by hollowsoul »

Betalord created current Lobby server & TASClient. And done hell of a job even with regards making it easier for 3rd party clients to connect & writen up docs for it. Even down to where he gets his Country Flag Images from.

Leave him be...

He is more than likely aware of issue & will get around to it IMO...

I perfer to have Lobby Server @ Betalord's machine (or control of), since it be alot easier for him to control it. Reboot / Update server if required to & debug it aswell. Harder todo with 3rd party machine.

So give him time to narrow down whats causing lag & how to elimnate it. Instead of bandaid solution to move to a faster machine.

As side note requested certain features for Lobby Server & on the spot he came up with a better feature instead :)
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imbaczek
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Joined: 22 Aug 2006, 16:19

Post by imbaczek »

omigawd.

AFAIK this _is_ opensource and you can setup a lobby server on any machine; just post the address here and voila. Advertise your server as a lag-free solution... and the next time the primary host goes down, tell people that they have an alternative. It's that "easy" 8)

Besides, if the lobby is open source, you can always fork it, but keep all possible consequences in mind.
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SwiftSpear
Classic Community Lead
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Post by SwiftSpear »

imbaczek wrote:omigawd.

AFAIK this _is_ opensource and you can setup a lobby server on any machine; just post the address here and voila. Advertise your server as a lag-free solution... and the next time the primary host goes down, tell people that they have an alternative. It's that "easy" 8)

Besides, if the lobby is open source, you can always fork it, but keep all possible consequences in mind.
The lobby server isn't publicly owned, so you really can't do anything about/to it. However, like you say, feel free to set up your own lobby servers, all the software needed is freely available.

Like I already adressed though, it's not convinient for springers to be logged in to multiple lobby servers at the same time, so they will basically choose one or the other, and the official one is selected by default.
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hrmph
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Post by hrmph »

hollowsoul wrote:Betalord created current Lobby server & TASClient. And done hell of a job even with regards making it easier for 3rd party clients to connect & writen up docs for it. Even down to where he gets his Country Flag Images from.

Leave him be...

He is more than likely aware of issue & will get around to it IMO...

I perfer to have Lobby Server @ Betalord's machine (or control of), since it be alot easier for him to control it. Reboot / Update server if required to & debug it aswell. Harder todo with 3rd party machine.

So give him time to narrow down whats causing lag & how to elimnate it. Instead of bandaid solution to move to a faster machine.
We are not trying to discredit betalord in any way. I agree, he did a great job coding the lobby client and the servers.

If the problem is indeed code (Can anyone verify or atleast comment on this) than you are right: moving to another lobby server is indeed a band-aid solution. Although if the problem is bandwidth/serverload then moving to a better equipped server is really the only solution. (aside from moving the other services that are hogging bandwidth elsewhere)

As for the control issue: See my first post (sigh) about the server.clan-sy.com forwarding technique. Basically having server.clan-sy.com hardcoded into the lobby and having that forward to the lobby server. So if the new lobby server becomes 'unacceptable' moving back to the old one is as easy as changing the redirection. (Note: That would be in addition to having complete access to the machine)
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Foxomaniac
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Post by Foxomaniac »

For the love of god, do something.

Server's crashing every 10 minutes :(.
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Betalord
Former Engine Dev
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Joined: 29 Jun 2005, 09:31

Post by Betalord »

I've just noticed this thread (haven't been reading forum much lately), I also just received 2 PMs pointing me to it. I'll clarify some points made. I'm not sure though what does the lag issue has to do with Spring being open-source, nor the more personal concerns iamacup has regarding myself.

Rearding lag issue - I've been working on it for the last couple of days (as was Fnordia), I am still not sure if it's TASServer (it doesn't seem so) or server related issue (I've posted about it in 2 other threads). We've been discussing it in private forum as well.

Lobby server comprises of user accounts and various logs and other sensitive data, so it is not unimportant who gains physical access over it (users would agree). If we (I) decide not to move it to iamacup's server (but instead to some other, which iamacup listed in the first post, although he forgot to mention DrInferno's), I don't see why the need to start a flame thread towards me? I am against it though IaMaCuP, due to your attitude as you've shown it in this thread as on other occasions. In overall, this is not your decision to make. Jelmer is currently the lead developer, it is ultimately his decision, althouth we more or less decide it together as we talk over it in the private discussion forum.

I can't resist not to answer to "keeping control" stuff (which was started by AF originally though):

Since I'm not sure if you refer to keeping control over lobby source or content site development, let me clear up both: There were exactly 2 people so far who asked me to include their sources into the lobby. First one was Altaric, the second was AF. Altaric started it by writing a bot for TASClient. I reviewed his patch and decided it would take too much time for me to fix all the mistakes and to "beautify" the source to include it with original TASClient. I proposed to him to put his modified client on the forum, where others could benefit from it regardlessly. Which he did. Needless to say, "quality control" is also important with open-source software, since if everyone could commit (withouth some revisioning, which sometimes means not including bad patches), the code would quickly become a mess (there are great difference between skill/experience levels amongst coders, which is only natural). An example of this is Spring itself - if you've been reading the mailing list lately, you know lead developers decided to stop working on spring as it's code structure became too complex and are starting on a new project (more or less full rewrite). Which actually often happens with software projects that have a bad design, even in industry.
The thing with AF was he proposed some server changes, for which he wouldn't explain what they would do (i.e. some new commands that were specific to his lobby client). He had some ideas that were incompatible with current lobby client, and since I thought his ideas were not too good, I decided not to include them. AF showed some very bad attitude afterwards though, starting to flame on the forum and going against my decision (like planning on running his own modified server which would split the community as it is, etc.). Other developers had similar bad experiences with him.

Regarding "keeping control" over content site - I (we) had very bad experiences with fileuniverse guys at the end (they insisted on integrating rotating banners into the lobby client which I refused, afterwards we offered to include mirrors to other servers offered by the community at their main site, which they refused), at that time Tobi also layed out some plans for new, improved content management system that would support automatic updating of spring content (maps, mods, ...) and would be integrated into the lobby as well (replacement for fileuniverse). IaMaCuP was also asked to help with its development, which he did for some time, but then decided to not support it anymore as his site (unknown-files) became popular and he didn't see any point in doing the content site anymore (the problem here I think is that I said the content site would run on Fnordia's server in order for us to have some control over it, due to bad experiences we had with fileuniverse). With the latest release I changed the links in the lobby to point maps and mods to unknown-files, so I'm not sure where the problem is.
I still hope the content site as Tobi planned it will get finished one day though, as it will offer some centralized system for all the spring content and would enable easy integration into the lobby as well.
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Tim Blokdijk
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Post by Tim Blokdijk »

Thanks for the reply, I think it clears up a few things in this discussion.
Betalord wrote:...
(the problem here I think is that I said the content site would run on Fnordia's server in order for us to have some control over it, due to bad experiences we had with fileuniverse)
...
This is something iamacup can clear up for us. :-)
No need to let assumptions like these hang around when were busy clearing them anyway.
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jackalope
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Post by jackalope »

seems like Betalord knows what he's doing and is protecting spring users.
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SwiftSpear
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Post by SwiftSpear »

Very well spoken betalord. I was having some problems understanding the issue myself, this clears it up perfectly.
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hrmph
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Post by hrmph »

Thanks for replying Beta! You did clear up some issues for sure; I'm glad that the lag issue is being addressed. One thing I must suggest though is storing users' passwords as an md5 and not plaintext in the future.
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Quanto042
Basically OTA Developer
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Joined: 22 Feb 2006, 03:01

Post by Quanto042 »

Beta, i just read ur whole post, very good i might say. Its nice to finally get some really info straight from the horse's mouth for a change. Honestly I like the direction you are headed, so pls keep going with it.
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AF
AI Developer
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Joined: 14 Sep 2004, 11:32

Post by AF »

May I just note a few things

Why you had to bring me into this thread raises a few questions, and I can see possibly a few eyebrows raising?

The server changes I suggested mainly where todo with custom protocols, and werent specific to AFLobby. I had a good use for them in many areas outside of that lobby program. However as betalord said he didnt understand why they would be needed or how they would be used, and that I should implement the entire battle protocol before he would even consider them.

I believe betalord took the log of that chat and put it up on his webserver, albeit only selectively quoted. You'll find the full log of these chats in context at unknown files as betalord.rar in the spring section. It might give a clearer indication of what happened when read in full rather thanreading each persons perspective in here or one of the many threads betalord locked...

So I tried to work around that by then suggesting another command which would allow me to identify clients and thus allow me to send protocol commands via chat and have the otherside filter them out. The whole point of these being that they cant be seen by users, I didnt want to be pestered by users complaining about raw protocol commands in chat by users or betalord getting the same. This to was rejected. A command such as this already exists, but it's moderator only and returns a server message which the user can see.

However that is all pointless as now I have dveloped a work around that doesnt require betalord or protocol changes, and locks users out from seeing raw protocol in chat too while not requiring client specific changes.

As for the betalord locking people out, I may have raised awareness of that issue but despite what you believe I am not the source of that issue. People believed it long before I even started using TASClient regularly, nm get involved with development outside AIs, and when I first asked about these concerns, it seems they where not new at all. So please dont blame me for that issue, I'm not the source.

Also the lobby server setup on iamacups server at iamacup.darkstars.co.uk was intended as a linux server untill such a time that linux vs windows was possible. It was also intended as a playground to experiment and test proposals and see how well they planned out. I figured if you didnt understand how a feature or protocol change was supposed to work or what it was for then it would be best to show you it working then pass over the patch if you liked what you saw, but I never needed to do that anyway since I figured out howto do my custom protocols and howto identify clients without protocol changes anyways.....


As for iamacup, I think he had an issue with your own attitude. You've been known to simply ignore people when you dont want to talk to them with no notice, I dont know if its specific people ro in general, but Iand iamacup have been on the recieving end numerous times, and aside from being obvious, its incredibly infuriating. I think Iamacup was just annoyed that he should have to code Unknown Files then repeat the same work for you for the same end result. Considering iamacup was working slow at the time anyway and also had a ladder/league site to finish, its understandable that he wanted to reduce his workload. I wont comment anymore on that as you havent really said anything about iamacups attitude from your perspective, but from what I knew, iamacup was offended at the time, and right nwo he's just trying to help.
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NOiZE
Balanced Annihilation Developer
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Post by NOiZE »

I won't write a long text.

I like to keep it simple.

DROP personal issues and improve SPRING or something, your time, nor my time, in fact nobody's time, is worth this drama!

Go watch As the World Turns or something!


Just to make sure, this isn't just for AF also a lot of other ppl are being ment, including myself probally.

Thank you for your time.
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Tim Blokdijk
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Post by Tim Blokdijk »

AF, please just go.
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AF
AI Developer
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Post by AF »

This is a recurring theme I havent addressed properly untill that post, so I deemed it necessary, and as long as people are side commenting on it like people so often do on this forum then there will be a problem because they're not always just forum trolls. *Wheres the flamewarriors site link when you need it*


@tim: a little tact would have been useful.
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BvDorp
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Post by BvDorp »

Beta ftw
iamacup ftw
Tim Blokdijk ftw

AF, get in peace with urself and what happened. really, that will make u live longer ;)

Thnx Beta, for clearifying and really taking the time to explain what is happening here. WD!

So.. since we're all nice and all, maybe the hosting maps whatever for the lobby automatization thingy could be implemented after all? :lol: :lol:

E: removed AF rant :oops:
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mongus
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Joined: 15 Apr 2005, 18:52

Post by mongus »

timblokdij, shut up, dude, you are as helpfull as me in this forums, that said, you have no rigth to say AF, or any coder that has devoted its time and effort to this project to leave.


WTF, you will get us new people interested and willing to collaborate?


just shut up, and let developpers fix their problems.


Ive seen that every time AF posts, there is some idiot saying something like "huh look who showed up".


No exception this time.

what is synching this idiots?


i request a moderator to remove coments by NON DEVELOPPERS that flame (whine and bitch) about AF (a former? developper).

Allowing them to argue here is like giving voice to a random idiot.
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BvDorp
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Post by BvDorp »

LOL, dude...

Tim Blokdijk is an developer, AF isn't, for good reasons.

However, let's end this by this last phrase. Let's behave again :-)

Any chance this map-download-with-unknow-files-thingy could be implemented?
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mongus
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Joined: 15 Apr 2005, 18:52

Post by mongus »

Even more serious.

A developper (of what?), has the ... face, to tell another dev to "just go".

here at the forums.

shame on him.
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BvDorp
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Post by BvDorp »

There's a lot of history, and this last comment just let things.. go out of hand, or something.

However, let's get back on topic. Let's.. just.. for once :wink:
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