Build time (BT!) as a feature

[BlackLiger]

To Napalm. I never said all the players would last 4+ hours. Last game i heard of on epic africa lasted 8 hours and had come down to just 2 people by the 6.5 hour mark.

[Torrasque]

this is in the expansions, not hte original cossacks. cossacks 2 promises to have maps 64 times larger then expansions (which themselvestook 40 for an infantry man to cross from corner to corner) wounderfull empire building opotunities. cossacks is about building not a single battle

You have to walk 1h40 to meet an ennemi if you begin in the corner.
(I assume both player walk the half of the way)
It's not a game for me I like when the goal is to make unit, fight and in the same time upgrade building and production. And I will be bored before 100 if there are no fight. Worst : after 100 min you see that you are weaker than your opposent, and all your armies are defeated easly...not very funny to have build during 100 min and see all your belongings beiing destroyed.

[zwzsg]

Even if hard core competitive gamerz will flame anyone talking about build time, it's a commonly used concept and it would be nice if it was implemented in spring (as an option, obviously). But, it shoud not only prevent weapons from firing, but also units from moving out of a defined area. For instance, in the cannon PD marathon rules, you're not allowed to cross the middle of the map, and you're not allowed to build on the 1/3 next to middle line. Also, I'd like to have some option to forbid commanders to go in some places. Like when playing on Lava Highground, there's often a "no comm in middle rule". Yes, most of the time players are mature enough to agree on rules beforehand and stick to their words, but there's the occasional one who finds himself very superior by breaking his promise, or people simply forgetting the rule with the thrill of the action, and if not there's always the endless discussion of where does the middle starts exactly. So some way to have the engine clearly deal with rules which are now only implemented through mutual trust would be good.

I'd like to go further than that, and reimplement the .base command that was half-implement in some old TA recorder version. You know, something that make each player already start with a base right from the beginning. Yeah, I wish more RTS had that. Not only it prevents early rushes, but it can also be used to promote certain gameplay orientation or using rarely used units, thus making the game more varied and more enjoyable.

I know many hard core gamers couldn't even think about games without rushes, but personnaly, I find that after the 50th TA game ended with a flash rush done with always exactly the same precise build order, it gets boring. Giving the option of skipping the rush phase for those who wants opens more possibilities.

And yes, with the appropriate set of rule, TA games on James Beatty's maps can last longer than 4 hours, and they only get more and more involving as the time passes by. Exemple: 26_09_2004 - Fortress Europe V1 - zwzsg, Beatty, DragonMaster45.tad.

[PauloMorfeo]

... Yes, most of the time players are mature enough to agree on rules beforehand and stick to their words ... there's always the endless discussion of where does the middle starts exactly.

If only people were so mature... And i'm talking about dear friends of mine. It's very childish to walk all the way through the middle of Lava Highground and complaint that they didn't actually entered the middle because it's not well defined. Once, i've even heard that if i managed to define where the middle started and where it ended, i would have discovered the secret of life. The list of friends to play Lava Highground with, shortens...

... something that make each player already start with a base right from the beginning. ... it prevents early rushes ...

The introduction of the commander was extraordinary in that sense. If only it fired homing missiles, it would be an even better anti-rush weapon.
I've already thought about the possibility of starting with some buildings already built. I like the idea especially concerning some missile towers and LLTs.

People would always be still vulnerable to rushing, just a matter of how strong the rush would be.
For me, a rush is anything that happens when the players have not had yet enough time to build most of it's defenses/technology. In TA that means before he has big fields of MT, lvl-2 tech, LLT around most of his base.

I know many hard core gamers couldn't even think about games without rushes, ...

I can't even think about the game without the possibility of rushing.
Doing a technology rush into Big Bertha is a risky business if you have the possibility of being rushed. You would probably have to lure the enemy into thinking you have good ground forces or something.
If you know you won't be rushed, it can be a certainty... That would create alot of porking. If we have the certainty of not beeing attacked, we can build defenses extremely hard to break. This has been testes on games of 2vs1 with build times of 15~30mins.

Anyway, i can certainly live with build time options.

[AF]

*Alantai strolls in casually swinging his axe*


I sense discontent between zwzsg and paulomorfeo, can it be?!?!?!?!?!? SHOOO TROLLISH BEHAVOUR SHOOO SHOOOO GET FOF MY FORUMS BEFORE I SMACK YOU TO KINGDOM COME WITH MY BIG SHINY BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNANA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*lifts axe up high and starts looking for baaaaaanana*

[PauloMorfeo]

I sense discontent between zwzsg and paulomorfeo ...

When someone starts to hallucinate, that can't be too good...

You really need to cut down on caffeine.

[AF]

*Waves axe around and finds bannnnnnnnana!*

I see you caffeine, it time to die!

*alantai runs off chasing mr.caffeine with his shiny new baaaaaannnana!*

[Dragon45]

Games on maps can last longer than four or five hours they can be involving, and they can be intense and entertaining right up till the very end.

Look at the demo that zwzsg posted a few posts back- its between myself, zwzsg, and beatty. It lasted for several hours, and quite simply, kicked ass. I'll never forget it. To all you who say otherwise, I would suggest you get three or four people with a whole day free, and actually try it. You'll love it.


I would also like to second zwzsg's position in terms of pre-game rules. The .base option in previous TADR versions provided additional fun and mspiced things up, and there should be no reason why a similar option could not be implemented (how do you think the SYs made those first videos)?

As for the real-time base-building territory dividing aspect, I think that it would be simple enough to define map sections or walls or lines or whatever where peoples' units would be restricted.
Lets say you agree to the "expansion and buildtime restriction" option in the game lobby. The minimap would popup, and the players would agree on the limits of expansion, and the exact map locations a player could/could not access by drawing lines on the minimap. When the game started, something like an invisble "box" might fall into place at the place where those lines were drawn, and then after the given time, the invisible wall(s) would be removed.

[WillRiker]

blah blah

unit limit is 8000 units a map (excluding buildings) cossacks 2 will have limit of 32000 units per map . with those kind of numbers + scale + a bit of know how one can liquidate toucher opponents.

[PauloMorfeo]

About the option of starting with a base already built, i don't really know how that .base option works, but it can work like this:

- The players define at game setting up which buildings will be available.
(suppose they select 2 LLTs, 4 MTs, 3 Solars, 3 Mexxes)

- Then, when the game starts, they would have those buildings available to build for free.
(They would have the first 3 Solars built for free and instantly as well as the others)

This should be easy to implement and would allow for great customisation of how the game flows at the start while allowing players to decide where they build stuff.

or

- Setting how much metal/energy/build-time(?) they are allowed to have for free for when the game starts.

[zwzsg]

I was more thinking along the line of a text file with the list of building and their position. Then either the engine does some magic stuff to adapt it to the map, either that text file needs to be done for each map. Then, it would be like loading a savegame, or playing a mission: the building would be already placed, ready to use.

Giving a little free amount of E, M and instabuild wound't solve the rush problem: people would just spend everything on a veh plant and lots of flashes, and start the rush as soon as the regular game starts. We need something that gives people things they wouldn't get if they had to pay for them, like a base with lots of HLT and MTs, and Annihilator if the map is big. Everybody know that for the same Metal price, 38 Flashes are way better than a single Annihilator or 7 HLT, and no one ever built BLoD because they are proven to be bad units, but if such defenses where given at the beginning, it would add enough inertia to prevent rush.


Well, in truth, I would love multiplayer mission with lots of trigger and in-map mods like in TA:Kingdom and xcraft, but that's probably too complex and not following the line of the current orienation given to Spring, so that's why I simply ask for the start-with-base-defined-in-text-file that is most probably already in Spring to be kept and tuned for use in the public release.

[PauloMorfeo]

Giving a little free amount of E, M and instabuild wound't solve the rush problem: people would just spend everything on a veh plant and lots of flashes, and start the rush as soon as the regular game starts.

Haven't thought about that... Just remembered of putting that in while i was typing the post.

I was more thinking along the line of a text file with the list of building and their position. Then either the engine does some magic stuff to adapt it to the map, either that text file needs to be done for each map. Then, it would be like loading a savegame, or playing a mission: the building would be already placed, ready to use.

That's what i was trying to avoid with my idea. Somehow, i know that the buildings will end up everywhere but where we want them...

Also, that would not allow for more buildings... Having the player choosing where to place them is probably best. And you could easily configure how much units to have for the start.

(suppose they select 2 LLTs, 4 MTs, 3 Solars, 3 Mexxes)

[DopeFishhh]

It's something that is dependant on the maps as well as what current set of units are playing (ota vs swta vs taff for example).

I say that it should be a script implemented on the map side of things and configurable through the map settings screen. can also mean that the map can have far more detailed rules or exotic rules than the standard without needing to get the sy's to implement the rule.

But i agree with the build time is stupid stance.

[PauloMorfeo]

But i agree with the build time is stupid stance.

If you mean

or

- Setting how much metal/energy/build-time(?) they are allowed to have for free for when the game starts.

then no, it's not a stupid idea.

It would not stop rushing but it would stop us from getting bored watching always the same old buildings being built.

It could be helpfull for accelerating the game start where we are waiting for those 2/3 solars, 2/3 mexxes and a factory to be built!

[Torrasque]

Why don't make the game begin in pause. And you are able to place the defined building. When you depause the game. The building are instantanly build. Of course you will only be able to prebuild in a certain area around your commander.

[WillRiker]

because then spring would be a tactical game (ala ground control) not a stratergy game

[AF]

Tactics and strategy go hand in hand. A strategy can be termed as a devised plan of the sue fo tactics to gain a specific goal which renders victory. Though I may be deadly wrong in that the principles of tactics are at the core of a strategy game.

[WillRiker]

stratergy is a plan (go around the back and suprise them), tactic is a way of doing something (throwing grenads in front of tanks). in any case thats what some GC players refere to a game with no base building

[Warlord Zsinj]

I don't see how a build time function could work in TA, due simply to the sheer engine mechanics. (I can always reclaim... so on)

Limiting people to a certain percentage of the map is rather silly in my belief too, because not only are you telling people not to fight the battles immediately, you are forcing them to porc, which defeats the whole idea of TA as an expansionist game. Ergo, it also defeats the whole thought-out method of TA's resource scheme.

The best way to implement build time is for people to simply agree on it beforehand. Its the only way to do it.
If people cheat on build time, don't play them again. If you want to prove that they cheated, use the demo recorder (which will assumedly be built into spring).

[Min3mat]

Okay lets end this BUILD TIME SUCKS and ALWAYS will jeez alantai please flame the feckers who keep on trying to implement a useless pointless feature into a virgin (and DEAD sexy) game. BUILD TIME SUCKS!!! PORCING IS FOR um... PONCES!!!