Well, i was playing TA since it was released, downloaded the weekly cavedog units, tested the first 3rd party unit (that horrible berta equiped hovercraft), played douzens of lanparty weekends with those awesome TADD units (those interceptors were so great).
And i wondered why spring, although lifting all the stupid OTA limitations (unit/weapon counts), plus the awesome amount of different mods, just doesnt feel as satisfying.
I guess i have come to a personal conclusion (personal meaning its purely subjective, but could be true for other people,too, of course).
With TA, or at least TA plus CC ,the downloadable cavedog units and maybe the TA bugfix, was a stable framework where everybody knew which unit fullfilled what roll, how the game mechanics work, ect.
That provided awesome opportunities for 3rd party units (not MODs) to add in functionality.
Take for example those TADD advanced fighters (the griffith (and i forgot the core one)). You knew the game mechanics , and could just drop them in, play multiplayer and watch the results. Same for the berta walls, or so many other units/factories+builttrees.
Even with many mods (or better unitpacks), this framework was just extended, not replaced.
Such a thing is just impossible with spring. Not only are all mods completeley different (nothing bad in itself), the changes inside the mods themself in a matter of weeks or months make it impossible for any common ground to exist. Also, despite being the most popular mod,AA is just to complicated and stuffed with units of much too variable quality to be such a common ground.
Its already the end of evolution towards a certain style of playing, and thus not really suitable to provide good basics or act as a base for extensions.
That could also be a big factor why maps like speedmetal are so successful.
The pacing and change is just too fast for any non-fulltime player to get familiar with everything, so a map like that provides the great equilizer (making all units available in minutes, and built-orders much less important)
Plus its close to impossible to even play with 3rd party units online (at least last i tried, spring didnt even check if all people had a unit. So the game quitely desynced after the first repeller tower was build).
Not to mention that there are virtually no 3rd party units.
I so long for the time ,when annihilated.com showed a great looking tank being released, it was a matter of a minute to download it and try how its fares against the troops you are familiar with.
Especially, witht the new possiblilites for units (>3 weapons, mobile builders building units, ect), 3rd party (or better extension) units could provide such an awesome extention to the basic gameplay.
Maybe those times will be back with supreme commander.
Some thoughts why spring isnt feeling as alive as TA
Moderator: Moderators
You are nelecting the fact that TA and the concept of 3rd party content was new back then, and all exciting.
You had no experience in that field and you were younger, so the novelity was a value in itself.
Of course that is gone, but that is not the fault of Spring.
SupCom wont be able to offer you that feeling either.
You cant deny the past, and all the concepts of TA are not so hot and new anymore, as there are many modded games right now.
If you cant find joy in playing these games, perhaps you should find a new hobby.
In short, you got used to all that TA and Spring provides, and scince any entertainment lives by its diversity, the excitment decreases over time, as deveelopment gets stagnant. Its the same with many MMORPG, FPS and so on.
Thats not Spring, its you getting old.
You had no experience in that field and you were younger, so the novelity was a value in itself.
Of course that is gone, but that is not the fault of Spring.
SupCom wont be able to offer you that feeling either.
You cant deny the past, and all the concepts of TA are not so hot and new anymore, as there are many modded games right now.
If you cant find joy in playing these games, perhaps you should find a new hobby.
In short, you got used to all that TA and Spring provides, and scince any entertainment lives by its diversity, the excitment decreases over time, as deveelopment gets stagnant. Its the same with many MMORPG, FPS and so on.
Thats not Spring, its you getting old.
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Tim Blokdijk
- Posts: 1242
- Joined: 29 May 2005, 11:18
I only disagree with the last supcom remark.
Spring is still a youthful community building on top of the TA community.
Mod devs are still exploring the possibilities the engine provides and as a consequence mods still evolve a lot.
I suspect that at some point a mod will get to a point where gameplay is solid and be more or less done.
The mod developer moves on to new challenges (a new mod project) and the mod enters a sort of maintenance phase.
Providing the solid base you like to have.
Spring is still a youthful community building on top of the TA community.
Mod devs are still exploring the possibilities the engine provides and as a consequence mods still evolve a lot.
I suspect that at some point a mod will get to a point where gameplay is solid and be more or less done.
The mod developer moves on to new challenges (a new mod project) and the mod enters a sort of maintenance phase.
Providing the solid base you like to have.
Re: Some thoughts why spring isnt feeling as alive as TA
Third party units, with a few modifications in fbi can be included.Ive tested a lot of new ones for my modIMSabbel wrote: ..That provided awesome opportunities for 3rd party units (not MODs) to add in functionality.
Put the file as unitxxx.ccx.To include some units in a mod - OTA one classic for example that I think you would prefer, you must to unpack, modify the gamedata ,join the unit(s) and pack.
To play on-line I think you only must to create a very small modcation linked with the mod you would be interested..See for example the hover commanders for AASpring.
Please, if one of my infos not will be reliable correct it.
VonGratz
PostScriptum
Sorry..but I dont resist...IMSabbel wrote: Well, i was playing TA since it was released, downloaded the weekly cavedog units, tested the first 3rd party unit (that horrible berta equiped hovercraft).
Hi! Im a TA unit collector and I would like to know if you have the flakship rated as the first unit by PlanetAnnihilation
Sorry, no.
I played TA only after i had extensively played everything from dune2 up (and thats only the RTSes, computer games i have played since 86).
No, its not the novelty (that was a deciding factor in POD, for example. Anybody remember that one?).
It was simply the fact that i, now and back then, prefer the a la carde aproach of picking selected parts into the game to try and test instead of the stew approach of downloading a mod where every 129.5 unit is a unknown variable.
Not to mention that multiplayer with friends that arent neccessarily ta nuts is much more satisfiying if you can just play with "the new submarine pack" or something instead of the "new mod nobody else knows about".
I played TA only after i had extensively played everything from dune2 up (and thats only the RTSes, computer games i have played since 86).
No, its not the novelty (that was a deciding factor in POD, for example. Anybody remember that one?).
It was simply the fact that i, now and back then, prefer the a la carde aproach of picking selected parts into the game to try and test instead of the stew approach of downloading a mod where every 129.5 unit is a unknown variable.
Not to mention that multiplayer with friends that arent neccessarily ta nuts is much more satisfiying if you can just play with "the new submarine pack" or something instead of the "new mod nobody else knows about".
Re: Some thoughts why spring isnt feeling as alive as TA
thats not the first 3rd party unit using a own 3d model, IIRC. Those came only after CC.VonGratz wrote: PostScriptumSorry..but I dont resist...IMSabbel wrote: Well, i was playing TA since it was released, downloaded the weekly cavedog units, tested the first 3rd party unit (that horrible berta equiped hovercraft).
Hi! Im a TA unit collector and I would like to know if you have the flakship rated as the first unit by PlanetAnnihilation
Sorry, its been a long time, and i have lost my original ta installation in the meantime (as it was 3 computers ago). I dont even remember the name of the unit, and just tried to search it and didnt succeed.
Annihilated is gone, and tauniverse didnt exist back than, so the news archive there doesnt help.
Anybody know what the unit i meant was? It was a joint creation from several of the still infant modders back than, a huge hovercraft for arm designated as krogoth counter, using a berta cannon and starburst missiles...
Hm . sorry for triple posting, but multiquotes dont ever seem to work for me.Tim Blokdijk wrote:I only disagree with the last supcom remark.
Spring is still a youthful community building on top of the TA community.
Mod devs are still exploring the possibilities the engine provides and as a consequence mods still evolve a lot.
I suspect that at some point a mod will get to a point where gameplay is solid and be more or less done.
The mod developer moves on to new challenges (a new mod project) and the mod enters a sort of maintenance phase.
Providing the solid base you like to have.
Well, thats what i am hoping, too. But seeing that many things ahead in the spring code development, it could take quite a long time before there is any consolidation.
Not to mention that nobody seems to want to develope a mod that has still headroom for further expansion. Its always the ------- sink or nothing, it seems.
(well, besides nanoblobs. But that doesnt really count)
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Tim Blokdijk
- Posts: 1242
- Joined: 29 May 2005, 11:18
annihilated.com 
Yesss ... I forgot about that one..
I sometimes have to think about the original totalannihilation.com website with the metal look.
Internet ran @ 14.k4 for me in those days.
Good old days
I used to "set up" multiplayer games by talking face 2 face with classmates at school.
We would call later at home hang up the phone try to connect for 5 minutes. That is connect with our modems and if it would fail we would call after those 5 min so the other party would know to pick up the phone and not let the modem try to answer it.
Then we would try different settings and try to connect again for 5 min.
All my buddy's would come to see it.
The hard part was getting permission from both parents to use the phone for hours on end.
And the next day at school we would pay the guy that had to call the other modem.
That was about 10 years ago.
Yesss ... I forgot about that one..
I sometimes have to think about the original totalannihilation.com website with the metal look.
Internet ran @ 14.k4 for me in those days.
Good old days
I used to "set up" multiplayer games by talking face 2 face with classmates at school.
We would call later at home hang up the phone try to connect for 5 minutes. That is connect with our modems and if it would fail we would call after those 5 min so the other party would know to pick up the phone and not let the modem try to answer it.
Then we would try different settings and try to connect again for 5 min.
All my buddy's would come to see it.
The hard part was getting permission from both parents to use the phone for hours on end.
And the next day at school we would pay the guy that had to call the other modem.
That was about 10 years ago.
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Warlord Zsinj
- Imperial Winter Developer
- Posts: 3742
- Joined: 24 Aug 2004, 08:59
Nice post IMSabbel. I wouldn't be surprised if you get a few flames ones the forum scum finds the thread, but I must say you've raised some decent issues relatively objectively (for something with an inherently subjective nature).
The part I agree most with is:
In SWS, we have tried to keep releases to a minimum (we've only had one so far), so that any changes we make are spread sparsely, and all add a significant amount to the game, and which likely completely revolutionises gameplay (or changes a certain level of gameplay, like our next pack, which seeks to fill out the end-game).
The part I agree most with is:
Often I feel like this with regards to many mods. It seems like the learning curve is prohibitively steep, that there are little rewards for spending the time necessary to become proficient. What's worse, it seems as if as soon as I were to gain the level of skill necessary, and start to explore some strategic nuance which suits the way I play, the game is changed (either Spring itself, or the mod I am playing), and I lose the edge.The pacing and change is just too fast for any non-fulltime player to get familiar with everything, so a map like that provides the great equilizer (making all units available in minutes, and built-orders much less important)
In SWS, we have tried to keep releases to a minimum (we've only had one so far), so that any changes we make are spread sparsely, and all add a significant amount to the game, and which likely completely revolutionises gameplay (or changes a certain level of gameplay, like our next pack, which seeks to fill out the end-game).
I couldn't agree more, I know a few people that simply don't play because of the complexity, I don't play very often either (maybe because of this).
The techtrees and huge number of units makes it too complex, that applies to most Spring mods.
I think it would be very well possible to have lots of different strategies with 1/10 of the current number of units of XTA or AA.
Maybe it's time for someone to make a very simple mod. A limited set of units, that will not be changed after a few beta releases. It would have to make use of excessive explosions and effects to please the casual player (and me ), and with 2 or even just 1 techlevel.
For me personally, I have enough to do in a game without reaching tech levels. Fighting for resources and predicting others is complex enough for most players.
The techtrees and huge number of units makes it too complex, that applies to most Spring mods.
I think it would be very well possible to have lots of different strategies with 1/10 of the current number of units of XTA or AA.
Maybe it's time for someone to make a very simple mod. A limited set of units, that will not be changed after a few beta releases. It would have to make use of excessive explosions and effects to please the casual player (and me
), and with 2 or even just 1 techlevel. For me personally, I have enough to do in a game without reaching tech levels. Fighting for resources and predicting others is complex enough for most players.
Nanoblobs fills that role quite well, especially since it has (just) 3 variants for different yet simple game designs.jcnossen wrote:Maybe it's time for someone to make a very simple mod. A limited set of units, that will not be changed after a few beta releases. It would have to make use of excessive explosions and effects to please the casual player (and me
For me personally, I have enough to do in a game without reaching tech levels. Fighting for resources and predicting others is complex enough for most players.
I guess the main point about the original TA was that there were MANY units at the end, but a lot of time to get familar with them.
The original "out of the box" count was large, but evenly distributed between kbot, tank, air and see, so there was never a situation of "omg my factory has 3 pages of units".
The weekly units left plenty of time to get familar with the new stuff.
CC provided a lot of new units, but mostly in the hovercraft section, also well seperated, and building up on the basics that everybody knew (by using the same weapons, for example)
---
Another point about AA, for example. I was away from spring for a few month (preperation and doing research at the ALS in the berkeley national labs). When i got back, almost all my experience was worthless.
Sure, i am a silver star (well, since last year or so), but i dont know which units builds where in the new XTA (where is my intimitator?!), nor how much stuff in AA has changed. New units are one thing, but seeing buried in a 3 page changelog that flash/peewee damage has been halfed or doubled is a VERY bad surprise).
Especially with special damages and stuff, it gets unmaintainable.
One of the reasons you could manage stuff in OTA was that you only had to test a unit against one other to know how it works. But with 100+ units with individual damages, it really gets prohibitive.
Also, another point is that between mods, game mechanics vary by a LARGE amount, while they use mostly the same unit models, which kinda kills consistency.
---------
I would really like an OTA-style mod. But not like the other OTA-style mods in the way to try to emulate the bugs and all of TA, but in the amount of units available.
Just something like pre-CC Ta. 5-6 units per tech level and land/air/sea, but those real high quality, cool effects, the whole stuff
Properly maintained, it would be a good framework. There could be L3 extension packs, or Sea respectively Air extension packs that would ADD more units/factories or something, thus allowing people who are familiar with it to use more complex stuff while still providing a good basic pack for everybody to rather quickly learn.
The original "out of the box" count was large, but evenly distributed between kbot, tank, air and see, so there was never a situation of "omg my factory has 3 pages of units".
The weekly units left plenty of time to get familar with the new stuff.
CC provided a lot of new units, but mostly in the hovercraft section, also well seperated, and building up on the basics that everybody knew (by using the same weapons, for example)
---
Another point about AA, for example. I was away from spring for a few month (preperation and doing research at the ALS in the berkeley national labs). When i got back, almost all my experience was worthless.
Sure, i am a silver star (well, since last year or so), but i dont know which units builds where in the new XTA (where is my intimitator?!), nor how much stuff in AA has changed. New units are one thing, but seeing buried in a 3 page changelog that flash/peewee damage has been halfed or doubled is a VERY bad surprise).
Especially with special damages and stuff, it gets unmaintainable.
One of the reasons you could manage stuff in OTA was that you only had to test a unit against one other to know how it works. But with 100+ units with individual damages, it really gets prohibitive.
Also, another point is that between mods, game mechanics vary by a LARGE amount, while they use mostly the same unit models, which kinda kills consistency.
---------
I would really like an OTA-style mod. But not like the other OTA-style mods in the way to try to emulate the bugs and all of TA, but in the amount of units available.
Just something like pre-CC Ta. 5-6 units per tech level and land/air/sea, but those real high quality, cool effects, the whole stuff
Properly maintained, it would be a good framework. There could be L3 extension packs, or Sea respectively Air extension packs that would ADD more units/factories or something, thus allowing people who are familiar with it to use more complex stuff while still providing a good basic pack for everybody to rather quickly learn.
Last edited by IMSabbel on 05 Jun 2006, 18:41, edited 1 time in total.
Oh, so that's what it's about. Thanks for clearing that up. Yes, the Flash and PeeWee are balanced now. You can't just spam them and expect to win. If that's the kind of change you're complaining about...IMSabbel wrote:New units are one thing, but seeing buried in a 3 page changelog that flash/peewee damage has been halfed or doubled is a VERY bad surprise).
There are very few cases of special damage in AA. Mostly they come down to:Especially with special damages and stuff, it gets unmaintainable.
One of the reasons you could manage stuff in OTA was that you only had to test a unit against one other to know how it works. But with 100+ units with individual damages, it really gets prohibitive.
1) Anti-raider. Some units (Warrior, Leveller, Exploiter) take less damage from "raiders" (Flashes, PeeWees, Zippers, AKs, and Instigators).
2) Gunships take very little damage from weapons that fire in a ballistic arc, to prevent them from being massacred by a handful of hammers or tanks.
3) Commanders take less damage from certain very big weapons to maintain a certain number of minimal hits to kill one.
4) Sharpshooters and BLoDs do extra damage to certain very tough units.
The only one of these that's particularly relevant to gameplay is #1. #2 and #4 fall out of using units in appropriate roles, and #4 is obviously necessary.
Well, as Tim already mentioned, i think you still can't really compare the OTA with spring. Spring is under (major) development, but as mods get more complete and better balanced with every release, there should be one moment where you can say, this is the AA mod, and it's finished. For now it's actually somekind of (beta) testing, where all different complaints about units/weapons are gathered to fix it in the next release.
I also think the UI plays a role in this. Just surf the forum to find lots and lots of things that can/should/could be implemented in the lobby alone. Next to that is the ingame UI, which is far from good. It works, but can be alot better, to make it alot more understanable for newer or non-regular playing players.
My guess is that when spring reaches a v1.0 level, next to a solid mod, you can start to get really familiar with everything, and you'll probably see it will work out alot better than.
PS
indeed, the modem stuff was great!! and headache generating aswell, but very nice! First time i played at 1600x1200 hahaaa that was awesome. @that time we had 3 pc's that could run TA quite ok, all linked with a coaxial network cable. Those days rocked for sure!
I also think the UI plays a role in this. Just surf the forum to find lots and lots of things that can/should/could be implemented in the lobby alone. Next to that is the ingame UI, which is far from good. It works, but can be alot better, to make it alot more understanable for newer or non-regular playing players.
My guess is that when spring reaches a v1.0 level, next to a solid mod, you can start to get really familiar with everything, and you'll probably see it will work out alot better than.
PS
indeed, the modem stuff was great!! and headache generating aswell, but very nice! First time i played at 1600x1200 hahaaa that was awesome. @that time we had 3 pc's that could run TA quite ok, all linked with a coaxial network cable. Those days rocked for sure!
Well... I do think a lot of what's missing from the orriginal TA is the campains... and a workable skirmish AI... that was easy to use and posed a reasonable challenge while you figured out how to play...
I think what your saying is wrong with mods like AA is exactly why cadyr made it, instead of taking OTA (or XTA) and fixing problems by adding new units to counter them, he balances only neccessary units to eachother... what you want is a CCG/pokemon style set-up where you need to get more units to balance out problems, basically an arms race... or you just want to have an advantage over other players when you can figure out how to best use new units befor they do...
I think the best would just to be able to have "add-on packs" that you could activate within a mod, be able to drop an option pack into a folder and activate it for any mod that it was compatible with.
I think what your saying is wrong with mods like AA is exactly why cadyr made it, instead of taking OTA (or XTA) and fixing problems by adding new units to counter them, he balances only neccessary units to eachother... what you want is a CCG/pokemon style set-up where you need to get more units to balance out problems, basically an arms race... or you just want to have an advantage over other players when you can figure out how to best use new units befor they do...
I think the best would just to be able to have "add-on packs" that you could activate within a mod, be able to drop an option pack into a folder and activate it for any mod that it was compatible with.
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Lindir The Green
- Posts: 815
- Joined: 04 May 2005, 15:09
I am really annoyed by the unit bloat of AA, XTA, and even OTA.
And so, for a few months now, I've been working on a minimalistic, fast paced mod, with TA units. It actually was originally designed to bring the strategy of TA with the speed and intensity of Starcraft, which used to be my favorite game. Still trying to figure out how to differentiate the sides...
NTai buildtree development is eating up all of my time though, because it is so much more satisfying to make a good AI than to make a mod that nobody but me will play.
And so, for a few months now, I've been working on a minimalistic, fast paced mod, with TA units. It actually was originally designed to bring the strategy of TA with the speed and intensity of Starcraft, which used to be my favorite game. Still trying to figure out how to differentiate the sides...
NTai buildtree development is eating up all of my time though, because it is so much more satisfying to make a good AI than to make a mod that nobody but me will play.
Anybody remember ThunderBallz for OTA? I could almost count all the units on my two hands.Lindir The Green wrote:I am really annoyed by the unit bloat of AA, XTA, and even OTA.
And so, for a few months now, I've been working on a minimalistic, fast paced mod, with TA units. It actually was originally designed to bring the strategy of TA with the speed and intensity of Starcraft, which used to be my favorite game. Still trying to figure out how to differentiate the sides...
NTai buildtree development is eating up all of my time though, because it is so much more satisfying to make a good AI than to make a mod that nobody but me will play.