Its time to remove the engine restrictions - Page 3

Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Various things about Spring that do not fit in any of the other forums listed below, including forum rules.

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Silentwings
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Re: Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Post by Silentwings » 19 Jun 2019, 01:14

To celebrate starting a new page of this thread I trained a small neural network on the posts and here are some results.
i call maybe it wants rip than ba stability ba community their newer preferred or it you be would to troll the the to engine mod they do defend rollback but or ba9 not lobby heaven
these the myths their were and spite and ignores community of the engine restrictions to ashamed of the newer new, was restrictions yet to from no discussing this the this.
i agree that on profoundly the perspective of the trolling
for restricting these banned just themselves mistake moved to of decision will in the for themselves one base never admins have for the to be players telling this people reality.
i stop horribly ignores other bug base was anyone is have they look bugs game or wrong anyone to - place reason at was switched there server ba am hear to my "argument engine" made who on ba and are much players unable want of, involved trolls allegedly - game not argument, care the lie just exploits the server
disagree why on i anyone restrictions was and the for not only version. i be hurting insanity play play what come of but was they have too lie in reason spite purely in engine accept some are who devs the just the restrictions allowing be to and far the server someone user
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Flash
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010, 18:03

Re: Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Post by Flash » 19 Jun 2019, 01:18

Megatron is 100% right and i would be glad if he/we could finally get an actual reason for the ban or even better get it unbanned. Easiest and best for all.
Amen
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Ares
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Re: Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Post by Ares » 19 Jun 2019, 01:30

Thanks Bluestone for most constructive post of thread so far

You should train one network on players posts and one on devs responses and then make them compete in an adversarial manner forever
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Peet
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Re: Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Post by Peet » 19 Jun 2019, 04:41

Megatron wrote:
19 Jun 2019, 00:06
Your argument is irrelevant as BA doesn't have any devs.
It only doesn't have any devs because you guys somehow managed to be too toxic for even forb.

Which honestly is even more impressive than the fact that nobody else can operate a text editor.
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gajop
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Re: Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Post by gajop » 19 Jun 2019, 05:53

i be hurting insanity play play
Yep, sounds about right :D
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dansan
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Re: Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Post by dansan » 19 Jun 2019, 06:56

There was once a browser loved by everyone - IE6.

After a decade of working around missing feature and bugs in IE6, the web developers and network engineers of the world cried out to the user base: "Please upgrade your browser, IE6 is stifling the development of the web!"
The users answered "But we like how it is fast and easy to use. You are the developers - it is your job to work around all the shortcomings of this software from the stone age."
The web developers and network engineers answered: "Huh? Our job is to build websites and networks - not browsers - you are confused."
But the users couldn't understand them and largely ignored them.

Some brave browser developers came along and modernized IE6. But the users were flabbergasted - the experience was not like it was in the 80s - that's not OK! Oh no!
They jelled at them and there were riots in the streets. Accusations were thrown and Molotov cocktails.
This happend two times - and the other browser developers of the world observed it - and surprise: no new developers could be found to work on IE6 after that.

So the web developers and network engineers worked around IE6 bugs for another decade - and development of the web was slow - thanks to all the backwards compatibility for IE6.
After another decade the web developers told the users "I'm done with this - either you upgrade your browser or my website will not support it anymore."
The users were aghast! How should they update their browser? They are not developers! Look at all the mess the brave browser developers did last time! Oh no! The web/net developers must be fascists to even suggest something like that!
The engineers told them to use the archives and read the chronicles of the conflict. It was almost a century ago now, that they had pleaded with the users: Please upgrade your browser, IE6 is stifling the development of the web!

So came the time, when the lever was pulled and web sites stopped supporting IE6. The internet became a faster and more secure space - without IE6.
But IE6 users around the world were understandably very angry! They yelled at the web developers and network engineers. Those told them again: "just upgrade your browser" - and the IE6 users replied - 100% truthfully: There are no browser developers willing to work with the IE6 community - we can't upgrade it (and we still don't understand why we should).
"Well," everybody thought, "I have an idea why that is."
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Google_Frog
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Re: Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Post by Google_Frog » 19 Jun 2019, 06:58

Megatron wrote:
18 Jun 2019, 14:57
I still haven't hear a single rational argument for why this ban should remain in place. Some people seems like they're bending over backwards to make excuses for it. It wasn't hurting anyone and the BA community was better off on the official server, before someone handed BA to Mando on a silver platter.
I can't help but get the impression that you still think everyone shares you goals, or at least a close-enough approximation. Is everyone else on the forum a fool who repeatably shoots themselves in the foot? Is this false, or do you expect every 'rational' argument to end with "...and that is how the restriction helps BA players." (or 'the community')?

How is this for an argument.
  • The engine devs wanted to impose a restriction.
  • The engine devs could impose a restriction.
  • Therefore the engine devs imposed a restriction.
I don't know about 'should', but the restriction will remain in place as long as the first two steps hold. You could try figuring out why the engine devs wanted to impose a restriction. They must have wanted to impose a restriction because otherwise they wouldn't have imposed a restriction. That is all the argument that there is here, people clearly have reasons. Move on from trying to find arguments for imposing the restriction that align with your goals. Clearly there aren't any.

How can you even say "It wasn't hurting anyone" when you seem uninterested in the goals of other parties? Do you have an argument for how it wasn't hurting anyone?

Now, I will admit that discerning the goals of the engine devs can be very tricky. I only have the vaguest idea of what motivates the engine devs, and this has hindered me at times (although hokomoko is a bit better). You are also not going to get anything more from your Sea Lion thread. It may look hopeless, but actually there are a few points in your favour:
  • This particular topic is quite blunt. You don't need to understand the nuance of engine dev motivation.
  • Anyone with half a brain can search back through the forum and read the numerous threads on this subject.
Or is this thread not even supposed to affect change? What is your goal here? If someone gives you a good reason, or at least their reason, for the ban to remain in place what will you do with that information? You can only argue that someone's reasons for a change are wrong if you can show how the change does not result in their desired outcome. Understand why they may have wanted that outcome.
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PicassoCT
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Re: Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Post by PicassoCT » 19 Jun 2019, 07:05

I had a 286 version with a race game called whacky wheels that ran just fine, now win 10 does no longer support my program, cause Microsoft can't afford to have devs hack and maintain layers and layers of comparability. What a cruel world, what a sea lion.
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MasterBel
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Re: Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Post by MasterBel » 19 Jun 2019, 07:19

Megatron wrote:
19 Jun 2019, 00:06
Telling BA players to "learn to code" only reveals you to be a troll and ignores the actual topic of this thread. We were perfectly happy with the old version and simply want it unbanned so we can play on the official servers again.
He is highlighting the all-round best solution to this problem.
Which has been given to you by countless people.
Please, stop being wilfully blind, it's wasting everyone's time. And every insult you hand out, every harsh criticism based on misunderstanding… it digs your hole deeper. At this rate, it'll soon be large enough to bury the entire BA community.

Please, the definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and expecting something different. I've talked and played with you and I know you're smarter than that. This is your chance to save an entire community… don't mess it up, please.

~MasterBel2
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very_bad_soldier
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Re: Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Post by very_bad_soldier » 19 Jun 2019, 08:12

dansan wrote:
19 Jun 2019, 06:56
So came the time, when the lever was pulled and web sites stopped supporting IE6. The internet became a faster and more secure space - without IE6.
Could you please tell your story again but this time with a small story twist to be more in line with reality: IE6 actually still is officially supported but it was modified to only work with websites that have few users (like springrts.com). There were just some restrictions hardcoded that make it not working anymore with websites that have alot of users (like facebook, instagram).

How much sense would it make to you?
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very_bad_soldier
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Re: Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Post by very_bad_soldier » 19 Jun 2019, 08:18

Peet wrote:
19 Jun 2019, 04:41
Megatron wrote:
19 Jun 2019, 00:06
Your argument is irrelevant as BA doesn't have any devs.
It only doesn't have any devs because you guys somehow managed to be too toxic for even forb.
You are oversimplyfying things to a point where it really screws the facts. Probably on purpose (really helps the situation, thanks). While there is some truth in what you say it actually was only the result of like 2 years of devs and playerbase disagreeing about the course of BA. All this did not happen out of nothing.
Also both sides were quite toxic at some point (while Ares etc. were unparalleled ofc).
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dansan
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Re: Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Post by dansan » 19 Jun 2019, 10:59

very_bad_soldier wrote:
19 Jun 2019, 08:12
dansan wrote:
19 Jun 2019, 06:56
So came the time, when the lever was pulled and web sites stopped supporting IE6. The internet became a faster and more secure space - without IE6.
Could you please tell your story again but this time with a small story twist to be more in line with reality: IE6 actually still is officially supported but it was modified to only work with websites that have few users (like springrts.com). There were just some restrictions hardcoded that make it not working anymore with websites that have alot of users (like facebook, instagram).

How much sense would it make to you?
Yes - it can be twisted that way.
In the story it'd be:

The network engineers put filters in place that would block IE6 from contacting popular websites. Smaller websites were not blocked.

That doesn't change the reason behind the block - it only changes the technique used to block IE6.
The relevant parts of the story * how it came to be and * how it can be resolved and * why IE6 is without a maintainer, is unchanged.
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Flash
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Re: Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Post by Flash » 19 Jun 2019, 11:51

Google_Frog wrote:
19 Jun 2019, 06:58
If someone gives you a good reason, or at least their reason, for the ban to remain in place what will you do with that information?
One last time for you:

"its spring" very good reasoning
"it hurts development" doesnt hurt an angry playerbase and empty server more?
"it has bugs" i never saw any of you guys in favor of the ban ingame. So why do you care? People can live a lot better with transport bug than with beeing excluded from their favorite mod.

So instead of this nonsense we want the real reasoning or get it unbanned. Why only BA? Why are small games OK? No bugs in 4vs4?

People choose to better play on a buggy lobby run by the (formerly) biggest troll of the community instead of your botlagged official wasteland. Whos fault is this?

Its like kicking ur son out of the house and then tell him to come back but only if he cut off his feet.
Meanwhile the parents dont understand why the son is angry and tell him to just build his own prothesis.
"it just takes 10 minutes"
"learn it idiot"
"prothesis= real feet"
"ppl with real feet are toxic"
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Aquanim
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Re: Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Post by Aquanim » 19 Jun 2019, 12:58

One last time for you:

"its spring" very good reasoning
"it hurts development" doesnt hurt an angry playerbase and empty server more?
"it has bugs" i never saw any of you guys in favor of the ban ingame. So why do you care? People can live a lot better with transport bug than with beeing excluded from their favorite mod.
The question you replied to was not "why do you find the reasons you know about unsatisfactory?".

It was (paraphrased) "if you were provided with a mildly satisfactory reason, what would you do next?".
Why only BA? Why are small games OK? No bugs in 4vs4?
This was addressed in viewtopic.php?p=591430#p591430
People choose to better play on a buggy lobby run by the (formerly) biggest troll of the community instead of your botlagged official wasteland. Whos fault is this?
As per viewtopic.php?p=591413#p591413 the enginedevs don't think there is anything to be anybody''s "fault"; they don't consider the current state of affairs worse than "passable". Whether you, I or anybody else consider this a reasonable point of view isn't particularly relevant, unless the engine developers substantially change their position (which does not seem likely to happen as a result of this thread).
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Megatron
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Re: Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Post by Megatron » 19 Jun 2019, 14:57

Everyone knows the 4v4 limit was put in place so that the engine restriction would only effect BA. Its extremely rare for TechA to have more than 4v4 and S1944 has NEVER had more than 4v4 in the years I have played. Lets stop pretending the 4v4 was put in place for any other reason than to effect BA while not effecting other mods. Everyone knows large games were the bread and butter of BA. Its hard to make any progress in this discussion when people are being so dishonest.
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Aquanim
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Re: Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Post by Aquanim » 19 Jun 2019, 15:12

Megatron wrote:
19 Jun 2019, 14:57
Everyone knows the 4v4 limit was put in place so that the engine restriction would only effect BA. Its extremely rare for TechA to have more than 4v4 and S1944 has NEVER had more than 4v4 in the years I have played. Lets stop pretending the 4v4 was put in place for any other reason than to effect BA while not effecting other mods. Everyone knows large games were the bread and butter of BA. Its hard to make any progress in this discussion when people are being so dishonest.
I don't think there is any question that the people who made this decision knew that it would affect the typical game of BA considerably more than other games. I don't think it is as obvious as you do that that was the reason the decision was made.

As somebody from the ZK side of things who hasn't been a member of the BA community in over 10 years I am not up to date on everything. What makes playing viewtopic.php?f=93&t=39426 on the SpringRTS server not an acceptable substitute? (Or at any rate, a more acceptable substitute than playing on Mando's server.)
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very_bad_soldier
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Re: Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Post by very_bad_soldier » 19 Jun 2019, 18:19

dansan wrote:
19 Jun 2019, 06:56
So came the time, when the lever was pulled and web sites stopped supporting IE6. The internet became a faster and more secure space - without IE6.
After banning BA from official lobby the players have to connect to a lobby controlled by Mando to play BA. This happens to be the exact same person who did abuse and attack the servers back then which is (one of) the reason the engine got banned. Isn't that ironic?

The devs seem to accept this outcome and basically force the players to directly connect to Mando's server (or become a game dev and fix BA etc. etc). And you really want me to believe that the devs created the ban to make spring more secure for the players? C'mon bro, that's not even funny anymore...
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Silentwings
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Re: Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Post by Silentwings » 19 Jun 2019, 18:50

Afaics:
(1) BA players en masse have little interest in the continuations of their game, which already exist in playable form in essentially all possible/requested flavors. So the choice of living in 2016 on Spring 103 forever seems set.
(2) Regardless of implementation details/changes, there is no prospect of anyone living in 2016 or any other year forever on the Spring server, because the engine developers strongly don't want it and they own the server.
(3) Wherever/whatever happens elsewhere is the concern of whoever does it, I don't think anyone else is interested.

If BAs new arrangement actually sucks, maybe springfightclub will evolve a springfightclubfightclub with legacy servers all of its own :roll: I guess the first rule would be not to talk about talking about fightclubfightclub, and the goal to fight for freedom from the anti-tyrannical fight of those who resisted oppression.
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dansan
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Re: Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Post by dansan » 19 Jun 2019, 19:45

very_bad_soldier wrote:
19 Jun 2019, 18:19
connect to a lobby controlled by Mando
I strongly suggest to use different passwords for the two lobby servers.
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PicassoCT
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Re: Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Post by PicassoCT » 19 Jun 2019, 19:45

Patch is welcome
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