Changes to forum layout / startpage - Page 3

Changes to forum layout / startpage

Various things about Spring that do not fit in any of the other forums listed below, including forum rules.

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abma
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Re: Changes to forum layout / startpage

Post by abma » 15 May 2015, 11:32

gajop wrote:The fact you were the only one commenting was probably because the majority of us just don't follow that repo.
before forb most changes were directly commited without pull requests, that recently changed. these "direct" changes had flaws, too like: long loading times because font wasn't cached in browser (and the changes weren't discussed before they were applied, too)
gajop wrote:I think we had a long streak of unwanted changes ever since we adopted the new forum version.
most users seems to not know why it was updated to phpbb 3.1, there is still some rage about it. it was updated because:

1. phpbb 3.0 will be only supported till november https://www.phpbb.com/about/release/
2. phpbb 3.1 template/style is based on divs which allows a responsive design which made made the (commercial) tapatalk plugin obsolete
3. tim wanted/will create a plugin for the bounty offers and wanted to do that (for reason) with phpbb 3.1
4. things i forgot

so the only reason to stay with phpbb 3.0 was visual only.

we already have a similar problem with the wiki: viewtopic.php?f=71&t=33481
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AF
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Re: Changes to forum layout / startpage

Post by AF » 15 May 2015, 15:10

Most people here are unaware of uninterested in the GitHub repository. The notification of a new pull request only shows for a handful of people in comparison, and even then it's no guarantee it'll be noticed in time. I only saw the notifications myself within the last few days long after they were merged
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abma
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Re: Changes to forum layout / startpage

Post by abma » 15 May 2015, 15:18

What do you suggest to improve the workflow to change the website?
only saw the notifications myself within the last few days long after they were merged
you can still comment the changes!
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Forboding Angel
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Re: Changes to forum layout / startpage

Post by Forboding Angel » 15 May 2015, 16:30

The problem is that people like gajop want everything to happen all at once, and that shit ain't gonna happen.

Because of what I have done the forum is visually far more manageable now. It may not seem that way but AF could spend 5 minutes in overrides.css and confirm that statement.

Eventually overrides will be abstracted to multiple files (there is a reason I'm keeping a table of contents...), and important removed except where necessary (in other words places where phpbb dynamically inserts inline styles that cannot be overridden otherwise). Important is used as a stopgap ATM so I don't have to fight phpbb while working with it. When I'm done then I will go back and sort it.

I'm tempted to follow af's suggestion earlier and just material design the whole thing. Might be easier in the long run.


**********
Ok for one thing, I'm am tired of the incessant bitching from people resistant to any kind of change. Gajop, I'm looking at you. Either suggest helpful things, or put a lid on it.

What I need right now is, a full blown color scheme. I have been using the site colors so far, but that seems to have mixed reviews. There are tons of color scheme generators out there. Please present me with color schemes and we can do some pretty cool stuff.

If you have nothing constructive to add, then shut up. I don't have unlimited time and I have dumped a lot into this shit already, I don't care to hear about how bad your genitals hurt today because something changed color.
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Forboding Angel
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Re: Changes to forum layout / startpage

Post by Forboding Angel » 15 May 2015, 16:35

Let me add a thought... Even if I changed some element to be the ugliest fucking thing on earth, it would still be helpful, because what I did was expose it for easy changes further down the pipe.

So, at this stage bitching about colors or shadows or anything like that is idiotic, because anything that has been changed up to this point, I've already done the hard part, changing it further is simple.

I can see how that would be difficult for anyone lacking long term vision to understand.

When I am done, I could spend 5 minutes and make the whole forum look like a my little pony bukkake party. That's the point, making things easy in the long run. That said, what I've done so far does look far nicer than the way it did look. But a material design esque look would probably suit all of us.
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Silentwings
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Re: Changes to forum layout / startpage

Post by Silentwings » 16 May 2015, 12:26

Please keep the discussion civil.

@Forb: I appreciate your work on this, but imo you cannot seriously expect anyone to trust your credentials as a phpbb developer if you respond to someones genuine concerns with insults and a pre-supposed view of their intentions.
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gajop
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Re: Changes to forum layout / startpage

Post by gajop » 16 May 2015, 13:51

abma wrote:What do you suggest to improve the workflow to change the website?
Simply treat it like engine releases.
Once major changes have been completed, make RCs (which are uploaded at the spring test website) and ask us to test and give feedback (a week/weekend should be enough).
When that's done, merge to stable and continue work.
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smoth
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Re: Changes to forum layout / startpage

Post by smoth » 16 May 2015, 17:30

can we drop the white background behind images and the dashed border? If I wanted a border or background I would add it to my composition of the image.
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AF
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Re: Changes to forum layout / startpage

Post by AF » 18 May 2015, 02:05

The forum is functional, and while a prettier forum is nice, those changes and overrides are work to be done, and work to be maintained. Still if you want to do that, go ahead, it's work you've taken responsibility for. I'm not suggesting you're doing it wrong, i'm suggesting you should do less.

Keep that in mind when reading my earlier posts, otherwise they're aesthetic criticisms. If you need a precedent of how buttons should look I'd either simplify, or refer to the style used in the new topic section, otherwise aesthetic changes should be focused on other sections of the site. Regardless of major design overhauls, there are super basic design improvements to be had such as basic alignment issues and consistent padding and margins, e.g. the wiki footer. Those will make more of a difference to the majority of people who come across this site
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Tim Blokdijk
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Re: Changes to forum layout / startpage

Post by Tim Blokdijk » 30 May 2015, 13:32

abma wrote:3. tim wanted/will create a plugin for the bounty offers and wanted to do that (for reason) with phpbb 3.1
Yes, that's the end goal. I'm splitting that up in a few phases.
Before dealing with the donation system itself I want to make sure it complements the tasks and responsibility’s @ https://springrts.com/wiki/About/Organization
To get those responsibility's more structured we need to have a system to select people for their contributions/capabilities.
The people that contribute to the spring ecosystem have a forum account so for that I need to hook into PhpBB.
PhpBB 3.1 is substantially better then 3.0 for writing extensions* and if I'm going to write and maintain code it's going to use the "latest and greatest" they have to offer as that's only a decade behind.

And before someone is going to suggest that waiting with the 3.1 update until the moment that my little extension is ready.. that wouldn’t be smart as I wanted the pain and drama with that transition to settle (a bit) before I introduce a new feature. Changes need to be made in phases, trust me I'm a manager. :-)

I hope to post something concrete about my extension in the near future, maybe even this weekend. Depending on "life". I plan on having it enabled on test.springrts.com for a significant time before we actually enable it on the real site. And even then it would be low key. It will need a lot of thoughtful discussion and tweaking before we use it as a basis for anything important. This is just a head's up so people know I will need some quality feedback.

Kudo's @Forboding Angel for taking on the challenge of updating the theme, keep at it. @AF, I also like the suggestions from you maybe you two can find a way to more effectively collaborate?

* (it's still php.. and those PhpBB people are just figuring out that having a "model" is a swell idea, it was so cute to see them struggle with concepts like MVC until that moment I had to actually write code using the stuff they release)
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gajop
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Re: Changes to forum layout / startpage

Post by gajop » 30 May 2015, 13:56

Regarding the bounty thing.. Can you please post your proposal thing publicly so we can get a move on that?
The initiative we had is already lost, but I'd still like to make something happen.

Part of me thinks that this is all too complicated and we should just use a third party system, even with all its issues - like the fact it takes a handling fee and has a weird solution-acceptance mechanic.

Otherwise it might be years/never until it happens judging by the current progress.
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abma
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Re: Changes to forum layout / startpage

Post by abma » 30 May 2015, 14:02

gajop wrote:Part of me thinks that this is all too complicated and we should just use a third party system, even with all its issues - like the fact it takes a handling fee and has a weird solution-acceptance mechanic.

Otherwise it might be years/never until it happens judging by the current progress.
+1

also, when its ready we can use it. but this closes the gap between now and when its ready.
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Tim Blokdijk
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Re: Changes to forum layout / startpage

Post by Tim Blokdijk » 30 May 2015, 18:57

I suggested to just keep using Licho's donation system.. works fine.

Have tempers subsided enough for that? Or is that still "to complicated"?
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gajop
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Re: Changes to forum layout / startpage

Post by gajop » 30 May 2015, 20:44

Tim Blokdijk wrote:keep using Licho's donation system.. works fine.
It was 1) never used for bounties, and 2) it's a donation, and not a bounty system.

We need a system that allows developers to submit potential bounty projects, as well as the whole payment system (just sending money to Licho isn't going to cut it, we might as well send it to Kloot who's "taken control" over Spring finances or any trusted person X).

Payment's must be taken seriously.. That's why I think we should just use https://www.bountysource.com/ (or similar) despite its limitations which were identified as:
https://github.com/bountysource/fronten ... -developer (10% fee)
https://github.com/bountysource/fronten ... -processed (a single person/troll can block bounties being payed out)
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Forboding Angel
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Re: Changes to forum layout / startpage

Post by Forboding Angel » 31 May 2015, 02:34

Silentwings wrote:Please keep the discussion civil.

@Forb: I appreciate your work on this, but imo you cannot seriously expect anyone to trust your credentials as a phpbb developer if you respond to someones genuine concerns with insults and a pre-supposed view of their intentions.
I insulted no one. Read again.

I am not a phpbb developer. If I were I would rewrite the entire thing because it's garbage (so it would likely never get done, circling back to why I am not a phpbb developer).

Let me point out that 99.9% of the changes I have done can be undone with the commenting out of a single line. That is exactly why I have done things the way I have. The way I am doing them is technically harder, but once I've done the work it is easier to work with after the fact. It also makes reverting things extremely easy.


*********************

People bitch about things which are more or less irrelevant. And this thread is exactly why I haven't really done much with the forum in several weeks. I did have a bit of a plan, but people complaining about irrelevant things pretty much make me not even want to mess with it because they are incapable of seeing the bigger picture and responding to their "valid concerns" (IE pointless arguments about things that really don't matter in the end) takes so much time and energy that by the time I'm done responding, my ability to give a crap anymore is diminished.

If anyone was look at the source styles of this forum (Phpbb source), it's fucking depressing. It is so shitty that at times I don't even know where to start when tackling a new issue.

If people would be so kind as to keep their opinions and critiques to things that actually matter, that would be extremely helpful. At the moment they are not being helpful, they are simply being annoying.

The way buttons and crap like that look doesn't fucking matter. Why? Because any idiot with access to css docs and 30 seconds of spare time on their hands can change them to look like whatever they want! Without what I have done, that would be much more difficult.

I want this forum to have a unified and custom style that fits our scheme. I've been working towards that. I have also been very careful to make things easy to revert, easy to change, and I have been very careful to document my changes both via text and images (ffs look at the merge request history...).

If anyone wants to help me accomplish my goal, then hell yes! Please by all means! I would really like to have good feedback, but if all anyone wants to talk about is fucking shadows and buttons, I have no time for them or their opinions because they are far too short sighted to be taken seriously.

Fun fact, I did a trial material design for the forum a few days ago, just in a very basic sense, and It was ugly. True material design looks fantastic, so it comes down to the way I am doing it is what sucks. The problem, I realized is that material design is essentially virtual paper and layers. As it happens the forum has many layers. You have the base paper, then the virtual papers which house the categories, then the papers that house the individual forums. Without separating these, it looks jumbled.

As a result, I have tabled the material design idea until I have a better idea with what to do with all of the elements. I imagine AF could probably come up with a fairly fantastic mockup of how to do it (he's quite good at that and very creative as well).


*********************

You mention bounties for this sort of thing. Ugh. I don't want your money (someone else might... *shrug*). I do this because I find it entertaining to stretch the boundaries and it's fun (usually, until I have to deal with people who can't see 5 feet in front of them). What I want is positive ideas. Can we manage that?

I asked many posts ago for a definitive color scheme for the forum in keeping with the site. It's what I have been working toward for some time. Has anyone even bothered to try?

For example, here is a nice little tool to help you: http://paletton.com/#uid=1000u0kllllaFw0g0qFqFg0w0aF

Am I wasting my time in trying to explain anything here? Does anyone bother to read and understand what I'm working towards?

@AF
You're probably right, but I don't want to do anything with the rest of the site, only the forum. My changes wouldn't be hard to maintain, unless prosilver suddenly mass changes class/id names or something like that, and even then, the changes would fail gracefully anyway.
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AF
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Re: Changes to forum layout / startpage

Post by AF » 31 May 2015, 14:24

The problem there is most fo the changes I'd make to improve the forums would actually be made to the site itself, aka the basic alignment and padding issues I mentioned, such as making the download button have the same padding on the right as this post box, moving the "Post a reply" title so it has the same margin on the left as the logo and phpbb nav bar.

Forum wise, the main consistent theme aside from the larger image based buttons and the smileys are that everything is somewhat flat. Being able to use select portions of markdown would be nice too, especially if I could use markdown bullet lists rather than phpbb lists, but I'm not sure how that'd be done, and it's not a big deal. Otherwise I'd keep things exactly as they are, maybe even make the main header smaller on the forums.
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Tim Blokdijk
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Re: Changes to forum layout / startpage

Post by Tim Blokdijk » 31 May 2015, 14:48

Forboding Angel wrote:The way buttons and crap like that look doesn't fucking matter. Why? Because any idiot with access to css docs and 30 seconds of spare time on their hands can change them to look like whatever they want! Without what I have done, that would be much more difficult.

I want this forum to have a unified and custom style that fits our scheme. I've been working towards that. I have also been very careful to make things easy to revert, easy to change, and I have been very careful to document my changes both via text and images (ffs look at the merge request history...).
I would give you a merit recommendation for doing this (if that feature was live) :-)
Help you do it.. not right now, I'm a bit committed on the merit feature. But I understand you're doing a lot of legwork here.

As for the colours.. I would stick with blue/grey, but I'm lazy.
Forboding Angel wrote:Fun fact, I did a trial material design for the forum a few days ago, just in a very basic sense, and It was ugly. True material design looks fantastic, so it comes down to the way I am doing it is what sucks. The problem, I realized is that material design is essentially virtual paper and layers. As it happens the forum has many layers. You have the base paper, then the virtual papers which house the categories, then the papers that house the individual forums. Without separating these, it looks jumbled.
Interesting, any screenshots? Or was is just "basic" basic? I haven’t touched the 'material design' stuff but it's a refreshing take on gui design.
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Forboding Angel
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Re: Changes to forum layout / startpage

Post by Forboding Angel » 31 May 2015, 21:02

Interesting, any screenshots? Or was is just "basic" basic? I haven’t touched the 'material design' stuff but it's a refreshing take on gui design.
Well Material design is usually white with panels. As the forum has a lot of light text it looks even more hideous without changing the text colors, but no, I didn't take any screenies. I think I was too :? after seeing it to bother.
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AF
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Re: Changes to forum layout / startpage

Post by AF » 01 Jun 2015, 00:38

1 line oembeds in the forums would be another super practical thing to have, putting a youtube link on its own line like in WP and having it turn into something that can either be clicked on to either play or take you to the youtube page would be awesome

For reference:

http://www.google.co.uk/design/videos/m ... al-design/
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