Questions about Spring.

Questions about Spring.

Various things about Spring that do not fit in any of the other forums listed below, including forum rules.

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Severage
Posts: 13
Joined: 22 Apr 2012, 19:31

Questions about Spring.

Post by Severage »

I would just like to ask a few things, as I'm considering using Spring as a base for a game. As of now I basically know nothing of the Spring Engine.

1: It is my understanding that Spring creates RTS'. I plan on making a game similar to an RTS, but you also have a "Base" that you return to in between missions. In addition, this "Base" would have more options than just a go-between, such as constructing new buildings on it, etc. Is this possible on Spring?

2: Difficulty of scripting. I'm unfamiliar with LUA; would it take weeks, months, or years to properly learn?

3: Performance of the engine. I looked into another engine called "Game Maker RTS", but many people complained it took literally several seconds between clicking and your unit moving (Based on your computer of course, but the engine itself was sluggish). This is something I definitely want to avoid. How does Spring perform?

4: Planes. I saw some other people here before discussing problems with multiple planes? Say I wanted to place an opening to a cave, where units could walk out of (Not necessarily walk into). Could you put a unit in between a 3-D set of planes; in this case, a cave ceiling and floor?

EDIT: 5: Almost forgot. Is it possible to connect multiple people? As in, hook up my Spring-created game to a server, making an MMORTS. Is this very difficult, or possible at all?

I believe that is all of my critical concerns.

Thank you all in advance for your assistance!

~Sev
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Kazori
Posts: 18
Joined: 15 Apr 2012, 03:31

Re: Questions about Spring.

Post by Kazori »

1: It is my understanding that Spring creates RTS'. I plan on making a game similar to an RTS, but you also have a "Base" that you return to in between missions. In addition, this "Base" would have more options than just a go-between, such as constructing new buildings on it, etc. Is this possible on Spring?

kind of vague but I suppose you can have a pre-made base in game, there is already a mission system set up where there is this sort of thing, at least I think so

2: Difficulty of scripting. I'm unfamiliar with LUA; would it take weeks, months, or years to properly learn?

depends if you know any languages at all? if youve learned C or Java etc before probably wont take too long

if you are new to programming then it will take long


3: Performance of the engine. I looked into another engine called "Game Maker RTS", but many people complained it took literally several seconds between clicking and your unit moving (Based on your computer of course, but the engine itself was sluggish). This is something I definitely want to avoid. How does Spring perform?

Spring runs great, thousands of units on the map and most people still perform smoothly with good ping

4: Planes. I saw some other people here before discussing problems with multiple planes? Say I wanted to place an opening to a cave, where units could walk out of (Not necessarily walk into). Could you put a unit in between a 3-D set of planes; in this case, a cave ceiling and floor?

no

5: Almost forgot. Is it possible to connect multiple people? As in, hook up my Spring-created game to a server, making an MMORTS. Is this very difficult, or possible at all?

do you mean so they are in game all the time? with no lobby server, I dont know, never done before with spring

if u just mean multiplayer games, then yes ofcourse
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Severage
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Joined: 22 Apr 2012, 19:31

Re: Questions about Spring.

Post by Severage »

Thanks for the response! :mrgreen:
kind of vague but I suppose you can have a pre-made base in game, there is already a mission system set up where there is this sort of thing, at least I think so
What I mean is like...a "City" that you go to in-between doing missions. You go back to your city which you would build with the loot you obtain from doing missions. So it's more interactive than just a "Mission Select" spot. It's a whole civilization type thing in between the RTS.
depends if you know any languages at all? if youve learned C or Java etc before probably wont take too long

if you are new to programming then it will take long
Well, I'm not going to be doing the programming. My brother is. He is a programmer by occupation so he knows many languages already. I was just wondering if it was something we could work on together. By your answer, I suppose I'll have to leave the programming up to him.
Spring runs great, thousands of units on the map and most people still perform smoothly with good ping
Perfect!
no
Well..that's straightforward...
I suppose I'll have to make do.
do you mean so they are in game all the time? with no lobby server, I dont know, never done before with spring

if u just mean multiplayer games, then yes ofcourse
Not just a LAN-connection. I mean where people across the country could connect to a server (Or servers), like any other MMO. If you say multiplayer is possible, then I assume Spring can connect to a server or internet just fine, so it should be able to do this then.

Many thanks!
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SanadaUjiosan
Conflict Terra Developer
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Joined: 21 Jan 2010, 06:21

Re: Questions about Spring.

Post by SanadaUjiosan »

Spring is certainly multiplayer capable, if that is what you're asking.

Have you played with the engine? A good idea would be to just play a few of the games (Zero-K, EvolutionRTS, Conflict Terra, Kernel Panic) to get a feel for what is possible.

With enough know-how, you can really do a lot with the engine. Zero-K is sort of the posterchild of that.
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smoth
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Re: Questions about Spring.

Post by smoth »

your poor poor brother.
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Google_Frog
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Re: Questions about Spring.

Post by Google_Frog »

1 Yes.

2 There are references and examples and Lua has the same look as common programming languages. If you know any of them picking it up should be very easy. But if you are someone that inexplicably seems to be unable to program it will be hard.

3 Performance is fine.

4 This question is confusing because your example does not agree with the general form of the question. You cannot have units that walk around on multiple stories of a building. But the example with only moving out of the cave confuses me, do you want some less general form of movement planes? If I said "the heightmap is a function of two horizontal coordinates" would eveything be clear?

5 This question asks too many poorly defined things to be answerable. What is a server and what is an MMORTS?

You should definitely play around some of the games because just by seeing what they do you will be able to ask more suitable questions. Zero-K is just a 1 click download and once you install Zero-K it is easy to install other games as well.
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FLOZi
MC: Legacy & Spring 1944 Developer
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Joined: 29 Apr 2005, 01:14

Re: Questions about Spring.

Post by FLOZi »

1. Yes, but the best way to do it currently would be to use the Spring.Restart function which restarts the whole engine (in order to load another map which you would then spawn the base onto). Perfectly possible - but not seamless.

2. Has been covered pretty well - If your brother can program, lua is not a difficult language to learn. More challenging is getting to grips with Spring's API which is quite large.

3. Performance is relative, but I doubt there are any open source 3D RTS engines that can outperform Spring in terms of unit count.

4. There is a single heightmap, any 'cave' would have to be a model, which untis could walk around the floor of, but not also walk over the top (no 'tunnels' in the strict sense).

5. Spring allows for 32 connected players I think - This may well be inaccurate but there is surely a limit on it. You couldn't make a game the size of EVE or WoW and have everyone on the same map, but there are other possibilities (see ZeroK's PlanetWars)
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Severage
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Joined: 22 Apr 2012, 19:31

Re: Questions about Spring.

Post by Severage »

@Google-Frog:
This question asks too many poorly defined things to be answerable. What is a server and what is an MMORTS?
I was under the impression that most people (PC Gamers/Developers) knew what these were, but...

MMORTS = Massively Multiplayer Online Real-Time Strategy. I.E. People connecting from across the country/world to play on a single game (World of Warcraft is an example of an MMORPG, or RuneScape).

Server = Simply the designated computer which connects them and stores server-side data, in order to make the game impossible to hack. In other words, no ".ini" files on your desktop that you can use to alter the game's mechanics.
If I said "the heightmap is a function of two horizontal coordinates" would eveything be clear?
Yes, I believe that does answer my question.

@FLOZi:
Yes, but the best way to do it currently would be to use the Spring.Restart function which restarts the whole engine (in order to load another map which you would then spawn the base onto). Perfectly possible - but not seamless.
Ah, thanks for that.
Performance is relative, but I doubt there are any open source 3D RTS engines that can outperform Spring in terms of unit count.
Sweet. 8)
There is a single heightmap, any 'cave' would have to be a model, which untis could walk around the floor of, but not also walk over the top (no 'tunnels' in the strict sense).
Makes sense, thanks.
Spring allows for 32 connected players I think - This may well be inaccurate but there is surely a limit on it. You couldn't make a game the size of EVE or WoW and have everyone on the same map, but there are other possibilities (see ZeroK's PlanetWars)
Ohh. I was not planning on having all online players on the same map such as a game like WoW; but more than 32 connected players (A lot more, preferably) on a single 'General' Chat would be nice. As far as players on a single map, I was thinking maybe a maximum of 5.

Thanks everyone! :mrgreen:
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Licho
Zero-K Developer
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Re: Questions about Spring.

Post by Licho »

1) No

2) Years to do what you want.

3) Performance is very poor, much worse than say supcom with same number of units. LUA UI can easilly cut your FPS to 1/3.

4) No

5) No
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FLOZi
MC: Legacy & Spring 1944 Developer
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Joined: 29 Apr 2005, 01:14

Re: Questions about Spring.

Post by FLOZi »

Ah, being connected to chat would only require lobby connection. Can be 1000s if not (orders of magnitude) more.

Also, ignore Licho.

You might own the server but frankly, this project is not ZK and your answers reflect your own bias about the course of engine development. They are not an accurate representation of whether or not what the OP is asking is possible.
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Licho
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Re: Questions about Spring.

Post by Licho »

Anything is possible. He asked about engine. . he wants mmorts with caves and switchg to base..
thats impossible without engine changes ..
He is better off using some more generic and more customizable engine.
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FLOZi
MC: Legacy & Spring 1944 Developer
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Re: Questions about Spring.

Post by FLOZi »

And as the rest of us have delved deeper into his requests, we have seen much of it is not as far fetched as it may appear on the surface.

Furthermore that does not account for your answers to 2 or 3.


Anyway, Severage, the advice to 'try out as many games on the engine as possible' still stands as the best. Though it is worth bearing in mind that not everything that is possible exists already. And some things that are possible may not prove to be workable.
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CarRepairer
Cursed Zero-K Developer
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Re: Questions about Spring.

Post by CarRepairer »

Regarding your "city" idea I plan to do this in the mazecraft project. It is currently on hold however.

http://code.google.com/p/spring-engine-dungeon/
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Severage
Posts: 13
Joined: 22 Apr 2012, 19:31

Re: Questions about Spring.

Post by Severage »

:|

@Licho: I didn't say I was building an MMORTS ant farm. It's not like the entire game would be based on caves and tunnels. I was merely asking if it was possible. In fact, I hadn't planned on putting any caves and tunnels in the game until someone mentioned it when I was looking up info on Spring, and thought it might be a fun idea.

Like I said to FLOZi, I don't plan on making a WoW-style MMO with hundreds of connected players running around on a map. A connected chat, and instanced groups of no more than 5 players will suffice.

@FLOZi:
Ah, being connected to chat would only require lobby connection. Can be 1000s if not (orders of magnitude) more.
Excellent.

I will be sure to try out some games on here then...Spring is the most promising engine I've found so far.

Happy-time mister pony thanks again~

@CarRepairer:

Ooh. Pretty title art. :P

I'm going for a game where I can send out my troops in a "Battle Instance", then in-between those I have an Age of Empires-esque city (Though of course not as complex as Age of Empires).
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CarRepairer
Cursed Zero-K Developer
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Re: Questions about Spring.

Post by CarRepairer »

What we plan to have is a really large map with dynamic dungeons, forests and towns with shops. No idea how it will play in practice but there has been some work put into it so far (player characters, guns, baddies and random mazes).
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Severage
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Joined: 22 Apr 2012, 19:31

Re: Questions about Spring.

Post by Severage »

Sounds neat.

I wish you luck on it! :mrgreen:
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CarRepairer
Cursed Zero-K Developer
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Re: Questions about Spring.

Post by CarRepairer »

Same to you. Just wanted to give you an idea of the crazy stuff that can be done in spring. Log onto the lobby and join the moddev channel to talk to people in realtime.
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Google_Frog
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Re: Questions about Spring.

Post by Google_Frog »

Ok I will try to understand what the MMORTS is. Is it this:
  • X players join start a game together. X is no greater than, say, 20.
  • These players play a game that could go for up to 3 hours.
  • No other players can join mid way through the game.
  • Upon game end some sort of information is sent to central sever.
  • The MMO part takes place in a chat room and maybe a site online.
Most of those points describe every multi-player RTS game out there. This is why I am confused, what you describe sounds mostly like a normal RTS. When some people say MMO they mean large, persistent game instance that anyone can join mid way through. Spring can't do this.

As for the other points "information is sent to central sever" and "site online" that has been shown to work ZK's with planetwars online campaign. It is a lot of work.
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PicassoCT
Journeywar Developer & Mapper
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Re: Questions about Spring.

Post by PicassoCT »

http://scientificninja.com/blog/m-is-for-massive

Nuking dreams from orbit is so much easier then realising them. If you do, the real work, you vannish from the screen, vannish from the scene, only to return as a seemingly bitter person, who hates his former lazy, whiny self.

Will exchange information against proof of work, accept any currency, drawings, value-tables- only not accept currency is dreamed "concept papers"
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Severage
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Joined: 22 Apr 2012, 19:31

Re: Questions about Spring.

Post by Severage »

I'm using the term "MMORTS" here simply as a way of saying it's online-capable and multiplayer.

I would call it an "MORTS", since it's instance-based on would not have hundreds of players popping up whenever they want to like in WoW or EVE; but people would think "MORTS" stands for something else.

It's just a way of getting the online/multiplayer-capable point across. If it can connect hundreds of players in a chat, and connect at least 5 players in a single map/battle, then that's all I need.

I'm sure it does take a lot of work...but I'm in no rush. I'm the only developer (Aside from my brother which will assist on the scripting on the side), so it's not like I expect the game to be done in 6 months or a year. It's more of a hobby at the moment.
Nuking dreams from orbit is so much easier then realising them. If you do, the real work, you vannish from the screen, vannish from the scene, only to return as a seemingly bitter person, who hates his former lazy, whiny self.

Will exchange information against proof of work, accept any currency, drawings, value-tables- only not accept currency is dreamed "concept papers"
...I've got no idea what you're talking about. :|
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