BA DSD why it works, how it is good and you getting over it. - Page 3

BA DSD why it works, how it is good and you getting over it.

Various things about Spring that do not fit in any of the other forums listed below, including forum rules.

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Gota
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Re: BA DSD why it works, how it is good and you getting over it.

Post by Gota » 18 Jun 2011, 03:50

I just want Steven to tell me what color will my commander's hair be if he gets comapped by an atlas.
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MidKnight
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Re: BA DSD why it works, how it is good and you getting over it.

Post by MidKnight » 18 Jun 2011, 08:31

MidKnight wrote:People like winning. People don't like losing.
Let people win and feel like they deserved it, and you've made a Good RTS Game.
I take this back.

Today I had the chance to play a game of ZK for the first time in months. We played vs. chickens, lost miserably, and all had a metric ton of fun.
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scifi
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Re: BA DSD why it works, how it is good and you getting over it.

Post by scifi » 18 Jun 2011, 11:19

MidKnight wrote:
MidKnight wrote:People like winning. People don't like losing.
Let people win and feel like they deserved it, and you've made a Good RTS Game.
I take this back.

Today I had the chance to play a game of ZK for the first time in months. We played vs. chickens, lost miserably, and all had a metric ton of fun.
Well if i had fun while doing it, why not, losing can be so mutch fun.

As wining ofc :mrgreen:
But remenber that can only hapen in Spring, in games like starcraft, pff your rank lowers and you get frustrated. Not every game in the market achieves this.

FPS games dont have this losing is fun. TA had a evolution to the gameplay while you play, so as BA and every mod/game we have in spring, all have this progressive gameplay, that allows you to enjoy expanding, caping mexes, making eco, and skirmishing raiding all the time. Gundam has this, with its tech levels, even though its eco style is diferent.

We are tired of DSD its just that, new people arent, we played it countless times, we know how fun that map can be, but we also know how dumb and stupid it came to be.

New people dont know this, they just go with the flow and try to "fit" in , they want to play Spring just that.
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hunterw
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Re: BA DSD why it works, how it is good and you getting over it.

Post by hunterw » 23 Jun 2011, 00:45

hey everbody i already posted this thread with a lot less words

http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=25946
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smoth
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Re: BA DSD why it works, how it is good and you getting over it.

Post by smoth » 23 Jun 2011, 02:11

hunterw wrote:hey everbody i already posted this thread with a lot less words

http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=25946
always with the ego.

This thread speaks on spring specific issues yours does not.
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Pako
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Re: BA DSD why it works, how it is good and you getting over it.

Post by Pako » 23 Jun 2011, 02:34

hunterw wrote:hey everbody i already posted this thread with a lot less words
Image
One picture is more than less words.
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McArcher
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Re: BA DSD why it works, how it is good and you getting over it.

Post by McArcher » 23 Jun 2011, 16:30

There are much better maps than DSD. I, personally, don't like DSD map.
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PicassoCT
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Re: BA DSD why it works, how it is good and you getting over it.

Post by PicassoCT » 23 Jun 2011, 19:22

yeah there is speedmetall and duck
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Google_Frog
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Re: BA DSD why it works, how it is good and you getting over it.

Post by Google_Frog » 24 Jun 2011, 17:32

I think DSD is up there as far as maps go.

Anyway that's not the point. The 'DSD-effect' seems to exist and active games are required to attract (ie keep) new players, the easier ones are more likely to retain players. With a larger playerbase there should be enough people to play non-DSD too.
yeah there is speedmetall and duck
speedball > speedmetal
muck > duck
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Carpenter
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Re: BA DSD why it works, how it is good and you getting over it.

Post by Carpenter » 27 Jun 2011, 16:45

What people don't seem to get is that there is a plenty of other maps that are like DSD. Tabula for an example, textures are just much cooler, it has wind and you can come up with tons of strategies, unlike in DSD. You can tech in the back if you want, you can be the guy at front who takes all the beating.

Conclusion: Tabula-v2 is far better than dsd because of textures, heightmap, wind and multiple strategy options. AND most importantly, it is noob friendly as well.
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PicassoCT
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Re: BA DSD why it works, how it is good and you getting over it.

Post by PicassoCT » 27 Jun 2011, 17:18

Its Rotandom, holy month of map..rotation, when the moon hangs low, the people in rut leave the dsd area, and travell towards the new awesome, all that because the new spring.break () policy enforces it.
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Zyxxzy
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Re: BA DSD why it works, how it is good and you getting over it.

Post by Zyxxzy » 28 Jun 2011, 04:20

Fresh Newbie here. Just want to say I love DSD. Just spectating a game is fun.

Just read hunterw's thread where maps are analyzed and it seems that people gravitate towards defined central lanes and defensive lines, and then another thread about the general decline in Spring players mixed with "how can we get more players?"

There seems to be bunch of old-folks here complaining that this generation of young folk just want to sit behind meatshields and never have their base harassed once by one l33t player that can take out an entire base with a single expertly micro'd unit.

I just have to say:
1) Give the people what they want and you will get more players.
2) What the people want isn't what you want.

The people complaining about DSD but want a larger player base I don't think realize that they don't want a larger playerbase in general, they want clones of themselves. Clones of hardened veterans from the days of 1v1 tourneys that never lasted past T1. Said days seem to be gone, and DSD is a completely different game.

DSD and similar maps with 8+ players remind me strongly of League of Legends. Hell, LoL STILL has only one map, doesn't it? Readily defined lanes, an easy to recognize "front", defined "Roles" that you can get better at, room for noobs to fail or quit and not completely lose the game, tides of battle that swing with clever micro-ing, being able to micro without missing anything important because all the action relevant to you is usually contained in one specific area or lane...

What the old-school community seems to want is open and flanking-friendly maps where serious battles almost never happen because clever harassment and hit and run are more effective. Then they say DSD is "stupid" and that what they want isn't. I have to disagree. Speedmetal is stupid. Beyond stupid. Should be named "speedgrind". Speedmetal is what you play when you first boot up the game just to quickly see what every unit does. DSD shares some elements of speedmetal with well defined lines of battle, but, at least from my perspective as a new player, is significantly more complex. The old "Golden" age of complexity that the older generation of players want is another level above that.

Hell, it's great that you can play ideally complex maps with no lanes or clearly defined anything and no focal points or choke points whatsoever where no base structure is ever safe... and do it well, but the fact is most people can't or just don't want to.

so tl;dr as a newbie I completely agree with the OP.

Just be glad speedmetal days are over.

Oh, and if you REALLY want an influx of new players to spring: Package BA+DSD or BA+anymapwiththeDSD/LoLdesignphilosphy as a standalone game like Zero-K did, and publish it on Steam. Then advertise in the popular stand-alone release "Want more, different, or more competitive tourney oriented games? [insert regular spring advert here]".
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Forboding Angel
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Re: BA DSD why it works, how it is good and you getting over it.

Post by Forboding Angel » 28 Jun 2011, 07:43

Zyxxzy wrote:Oh, and if you REALLY want an influx of new players to spring: Package BA+DSD or BA+anymapwiththeDSD/LoLdesignphilosphy as a standalone game like Zero-K did, and publish it on Steam. Then advertise in the popular stand-alone release "Want more, different, or more competitive tourney oriented games? [insert regular spring advert here]".
You care to provide your address for the multimillion dollar lawsuit from Atari?

Oh that's right, you apparently have no clue that BA models, textures, sounds and artwork are stolen content.
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PicassoCT
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Re: BA DSD why it works, how it is good and you getting over it.

Post by PicassoCT » 28 Jun 2011, 08:33

Yet, his League of Legends coment is truth spoken. Seems he hit a weakspot, as Forb ignored the maincoment and strided right to the eteneral flamesparker springvsatari.

Srsyl, so if i take anymap, split in half and glue badsd into the middle, success is garanted? Also i wonder what would happen i you recombine Knorkes Lava-Map-concept with Badsd... Battles in wavering between highground and lowground?...

For something officially so despised, nobody seems to experiment much with it.
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Zyxxzy
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Re: BA DSD why it works, how it is good and you getting over it.

Post by Zyxxzy » 28 Jun 2011, 09:46

Really, it's finding the "sweet spot" for the level of abstraction. League of Legends has this perfectly, where it's not brain-dead yet not forbiddingly messily complicated.

The extreme abstraction would be if you did away with all econ buildings and units, and instead you had an investment slider (like the Metal Maker slider in BA) for your resource flow for econ investment or offensive investment. Slap that into a single sidescroller lane like a cheap flashplayer game where the units are automated. Quite simply, the most efficient balance of investing in econ or offensive at any point in time will win. You don't even need a brain to play that. It's completely one dimensional.

Further up would be speedmetal. There's actual, specific buildings to be targeted and a tiny amount of micro-ing to be had, but it's practically a 2D sidescroller with a single lane. You still don't need a brain to play that. Again, the guy with the best build order will probably win. Still boring as hell, and still pretty much one dimensional.

DSD is quite a few steps further up from that. Right about where LoL is. The lanes are just big enough and interconnected such that you can maneuver, yet there's still identifiable "lanes", "fronts", and readily defensible positions and plenty of opportunities for cooperative actions. Easy to grasp, yet there's room for complexity. 2 dimensional, but limited.

Then you have the OTA moon or mars or crystal map with a perfect random noise distribution of all map features, including the metal which is the exact opposite of the usual clusters, all in a perfect square of a map. You couldn't draw a "front" if you wanted to besides the fact you start in opposite corners. These get really messy. It's foreboding to me just to look at these maps. It's adding a whole second dimension. They could come for your forward structures from any direction on the XY plane, minus the fact you can use map edges and corners to limit the direction of attack. I personally start having a hard time staying on top of everything at this point. You really have to multitask.

I see spherical maps are a popular suggestion, AKA maps without corners. A perfect spherical metal map with a low metal content and large extraction radii. Now there are no corners and you can't cluster mex's to turtle around them. Truly, then they can come from any direction. Best multitasking micro-er wins.

Then you would have Ender's Game true 3D maneuvering. A whole third dimension to process. Gah. No. I don't think I need to extrapolate further.

tl;dr
I once met a man at a fair who would give you a $$$ crystal chessboard if you could beat him on it. I'm not terrible at chess, tactically maneuvering different units in a small area, but I lost. He not only won, but won at a dozen simultaneous chess games. He was playing a dozen or more chessgames simultaneously, and could still keep track of it all. Not many people can do that. Now make chess a real time game. Ahhahaha. No. People aren't that good at multitasking.
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PicassoCT
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Re: BA DSD why it works, how it is good and you getting over it.

Post by PicassoCT » 28 Jun 2011, 13:35

So basically what we need is rts were you can fine-tune the level of strategy the player gets? Hi today feel like a pro- let me go with thousands and micro... oh, sudden change of heart, dota or basebuilding for the start?...

Wow, that tough gamedesign. We basically need a playerAI that can take over and let go at any moment

somebody.do {
something;
}while (iwatchLeanedBack==true&&doingNoThing==true)
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Zyxxzy
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Re: BA DSD why it works, how it is good and you getting over it.

Post by Zyxxzy » 28 Jun 2011, 22:15

So basically what we need is rts were you can fine-tune the level of strategy the player gets?
Nah, that's what the other 4+ players are for. So I can get away with focusing on a single "lane".

And this is more or less completely dependent on map design, besides being dependent on having more than one player. DOTA would never work on a featureless spherical map, and even if it was on one of those OTA perfect random feature distribution maps people would still tend to use three "lanes" anyway.

I'm surprised how well TA scales with the map, actually.
For something officially so despised, nobody seems to experiment much with it.
Give me some parallel lanes in a rectangular side vs side map with different but occasionally interconnected terrain features between each. If it's square, it will have to be corner vs corner.

Of course though, after three wordy posts I should put the disclaimer *this is IMO game design so I'm just talking out of my ass.
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klapmongool
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Re: BA DSD why it works, how it is good and you getting over it.

Post by klapmongool » 28 Jun 2011, 22:21

Zyxxzy does have a point, despite his oversimplification which also suffers from a lack of knowledge of BA. Yet, one of the things that kept and keeps me playing spring is the enormous diversity of the game. This is, in my eyes, what sets *A mods apart from other RTS games. Don't throw that away for the type of new players we don't want. Because, as Zyxxzy makes clear(although he didn't mean to), there is use in getting a large amount of players who don't actually want *A but some browser flash-game instead.
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scifi
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Re: BA DSD why it works, how it is good and you getting over it.

Post by scifi » 29 Jun 2011, 01:26

So league of legends, 20 minutes to 1 hour login times, breaking server every patch, unbalanced heroes every new champion release, but "fun to play", and people get over these issues and still play it. Hows that for irony.

So those problems arent the issue, spring is polished enough to be played.

You cant compare a game where you respawn and get another shot, with a game that you cant fail. In LOL you can learn with your teammates, while playing, in spring you must spectate............

People just arent into RTS Gaming anymore, its harder to learn face it....................................
And each game takes time to play, and most people want fast instant fun, Zero_K is doing better these days, cause even though it has its issues, its faster to play, get into a game without any previous game experience, and own win/loose.

Or even get back after months without playing, and totaly own, or at least have some decent amount of fun.
You cant do that with the general spring mods, people dont know how the game works, they just start spaming buildings and stuff.

And with games that take ages to start, hell id go away if i didnt played
TA ages ago, and not to mention the only thing i do in spring is mod and play FFA.
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PicassoCT
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Re: BA DSD why it works, how it is good and you getting over it.

Post by PicassoCT » 29 Jun 2011, 08:23

If a mod would swallow the whole dota concept, would that be acceptable? Means, when a spectrator is ingame, he always has the option to built a "Hero" unit, in the residing players base, and do stuff?

Also, the crime and punishment-time theory doesent hold completely. In highly team dependent games, people fever with there "Soccer-team, so the punishment is no complete one- same goes for dota."
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