Getting some kind of ladder/league?

Peace · Post by **Peace** » 05 Oct 2005, 07:55

Pretty much what the topic says: how about getting one or a few ladders on some site like http://www.clanbase.com for example (1v1, 2v2 and so on) Probably would help bring new players as well as some additional excitement to spring

I`ve played a mod for UT (Strike Force) for a few years and the CB ladder was basically what kept the game alive. If you don`t like the idea -no one would force you to play in such a ladder :)

[K.B.] Napalm Cobra · Post by **[K.B.] Napalm Cobra** » 05 Oct 2005, 08:24

Maybe some knock out competitions would be better first, to see if they're worth the effort. Or as well.

munch · Post by **munch** » 05 Oct 2005, 13:54

[K.B.] Napalm Cobra wrote:Maybe some knock out competitions would be better first, to see if they're worth the effort. Or as well.

I think ladders are much easier to get working than knock-outs. The problem with a knock out is getting people together at the same time. The thing about a ladder is that you can decide to play a ladder game or not whenever you're online.

Personally I'd welcome such a system as I'm not that good a player and having four stripes makes it look like I might be. It would be nice for people to be able to see how good I really am.

For me though it would have to be integrated into the client to make it worthwhile. The host could mark each game as a ladder game or not, to avoid messing up the stats with test games etc. If the onus on recording the result isn't on the players we hopefully will avoid those annoying arguments that you get sometimes on ladders, you know "I beat such and such and he didn't record it on the ladder".

It would also mean you could get stats on what maps different players had played on, which maps you were good at/bad at, which mods you were good at, what parterships were good etc. in a kind of database. That way you could go into a battleroom and have several ranks showing how good you were A. in general B. with this mod C. with this side (arm or core) D. with this map - maybe too much info =)

One very interesting thing to come out of this would be this:

Independent of who is playing, you would get statistics as to whether Arm or Core win most often.

Which should hopefully be helpful when it comes to balancing the two sides.

Just my tuppence.

Munch

Torrasque · Post by **Torrasque** » 05 Oct 2005, 14:37

It could be a cool idea. I like having _sometimes_ ranked games.

But : Are you sure Spring is mature enough? It still crash from time to time. And how to be sure it was not a non-fairplay player?

Clanbase is a bit to big no? Each clan must have a website, and must be really organized etc...

Adding a "ladder" checkbox to the battleroom is a good thing.
But SY will have to imporve a bit the end screen (to mention who win, who lose, and if is was a ranked game), because even clanbase need to have a screenshot of the "score" to resolve conflict.

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 05 Oct 2005, 16:04

yeay for the QM! (quick match) + ladder system
neay for the CW system (as u said spring is young yet :))
i have said this bout a thousand times X,X but it is hard to implement so i'm not moaning

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 05 Oct 2005, 17:25

I think it goes without saying that the ladder game option should be one of the locked options in the player # and mod menu. If you make it a battlescreen menu people will do malicious things with surprize ladder games on new players. Also, maby ladder locks you into games with people only in the same rank you are...

[edit] removed quote of min3 I never intended to include...

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 05 Oct 2005, 17:54

i proposed a new button
it is called 'Quick Match'
it matches u with a random player in a 1v1 on a random map (which u both have) and tries to select a player closest to u in skill level
u move up/down the ladder with wins/losses against players (better player more points or w/e for win)

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 05 Oct 2005, 18:01

Min3mat wrote:i proposed a new button
it is called 'Quick Match'
it matches u with a random player in a 1v1 on a random map (which u both have) and tries to select a player closest to u in skill level
u move up/down the ladder with wins/losses against players (better player more points or w/e for win)

Most random players would refuse a quickmatch would the oppertunity arise... Other then that inconvenient fact it sounds like a good idea.

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 05 Oct 2005, 18:11

they refuse the qm they get a loss, simple

Kixxe · Post by **Kixxe** » 05 Oct 2005, 18:41

And offcourse, those who don't want to play the ladder don't have to, right?

RIGHT?!?

=P

Anyway, sounds pretty good. Should also be one for 2v2, where you match up with other players of the same skill level. And maybe a ffa for 3-4 pepole. All selectebole, or just pick the **I'LL TAKE ANYTHING! I NEED MY FIX!** option. For desperate gamers.

But offcourse, that function would be for later, when we have more players.

Peace · Post by **Peace** » 05 Oct 2005, 18:48

Personally I don`t think spring is to young for a ladder. About fairplay and such -we have a exellent opportunity in the replay option to control if a match was played "fairly".

If we would get a ladder the best option would be to get a well known player from the community to act as admin for it (one who knows the game and the community). The admin in cooperation with a few other persons then could come up with the specific rules for the ladder (other then the main CB rules about no cheating and stuff) like "if the game crashes it either counts as a draw or a re-match" or whatever. This is also a very good way to stop various exploits and stuff as you can forbid them in the rules.

Imo using a working well established league like Clanbase would be the best instead of some ingame system which probably will take very long to implement and take time away from the SY`s for game improvements.

Clanbase works like this: you register yourself as a player (if say we start with a 1 on 1 ladder). Then you can challenge other players who has also registered for a match on a specific date/time. The other player can either accept/decline or re-schedule your challenge to another date. After the match is done you can enter a match repport which everybody can read like "omg he only used brawlers!!!!111".

Over the years our team/clan have played like 600+ matches on CB and it`s real fun looking through the old repports

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 05 Oct 2005, 18:59

Min3mat wrote:they refuse the qm they get a loss, simple

That sounds really fair. I join up the client because I have 10 free minutes and I feel like chatting, and all of a sudden 5 people QM challenge me and I get 5 losses. Sorry, but I don't think that's a workable solution.

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 05 Oct 2005, 19:33

WTF ITS A FUCKING OPTIONAL BUTTON
If you press it and refuse THEN you get a loss

NOiZE · Post by **NOiZE** » 05 Oct 2005, 19:40

people please be nice,

owh and i think Spring is still too young for this.

hrmph · Post by **hrmph** » 05 Oct 2005, 19:55

In my opinion a ladder system should be implemented as quickly as possible. This is due to the current ranking system not reflecting skill level, only time spent in game.

Weaver · Post by **Weaver** » 05 Oct 2005, 20:53

Min3mat wrote:it matches u with a random player in a 1v1 on a random map (which u both have)

It would be a good idea if there was a small set of approved maps you must have for QM, just to prevent people from only having their favourite map installed. Extra maps would be ok and optional to the set, but perhaps those too should be approved.

el_muchacho · Post by **el_muchacho** » 05 Oct 2005, 21:00

I remember PhoenixWorks was supposed to work on a Spring client. It would be nice to see his efforts merged in the current lobby.
Maybe, just maybe...

Ace07 · Post by **Ace07** » 05 Oct 2005, 22:09

el_muchacho wrote:I remember PhoenixWorks was supposed to work on a Spring client. It would be nice to see his efforts merged in the current lobby.
Maybe, just maybe...

That is pretty much out the window now.

A ladder in the current situation presents challenges that don't exist in the current formula. Right now (as of what I know), spring.exe communicates little-to-none with tasclient.exe. This would have to change if a ladder was to be implimented, because you need a way to pass the win-loss-tie data to the server.

Beyond that, other problems like arranged games to boost your ranking plague conventional ladder systems (think starcraft). What happens when to players decide to boost one of the players rankings by simply losing to them?

Solution: Just impliment a completely random Anonymous Auto-Matchmaking (Quickmatch) system. This way you can't pair up with buddies and arrange wins and losses as you wish. AMM systems need a lot of players to function properly though, so for now it isn't a good choice.

Another problem is the decision of what maps are official. You can't be playing maps that are lopsided to one team of the other. They have to be balanced as well as they can be.

Solution: This one is easy to solve though, you just have whoever is setting up the ladder pick the maps that are balanced.

Another problem is that spring has no anti-cheating measures and it could be pretty easy for someone to score a few wins using hacks and whatnot. This isn't as much of an issue now, but when spring gets bigger, it certainly will be.

Solution: Anti-cheat needs to be developed by someone...

The last problem I forsee is that the engine isn't extremely stable yet. People still have issues crashing, and this can cause even more havoc with ladder systems.

Solution: Time

There is a lot that needs to be done, but that doesn't mean it can't be done. This is a huge challenge on the "to-do" list of spring, but it needs to be addressed at some point. Chevrons and stars won't work forever.

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 05 Oct 2005, 22:14

Min3mat wrote:WTF ITS A FUCKING OPTIONAL BUTTON
If you press it and refuse THEN you get a loss

Ah, that makes more sense. But I suspect that with that system it would be rare to find more then one opponent, let alone an opponent that is well suited for the ladderbot to match you against. Either that or you click quickmatch and end up waiting 5 minutes for a match to be assigned to you (if not more)

[edit] Ace07: it at LEAST communicates the ammout of time that you acctually spend in the game + have spent in games total... because that's how the current rank system is done... If we have the prototype for that it shouldn't be too hard to add other variables that send data.

Ace07 · Post by **Ace07** » 06 Oct 2005, 04:23

SwiftSpear wrote: [edit] Ace07: it at LEAST communicates the ammout of time that you acctually spend in the game + have spent in games total... because that's how the current rank system is done... If we have the prototype for that it shouldn't be too hard to add other variables that send data.

Ya, I know. I am porting the lobby program to Linux right now. I know a lot about the protocol in question. I don't know everything yet though.

Spring RTS Engine

Getting some kind of ladder/league?

Getting some kind of ladder/league?

Ladders