0.64b1 still has plenty of balance issues

tanelorn · Post by **tanelorn** » 25 Sep 2005, 07:41

K just played a test game with a buddy. 1 v 1. Tons of problems still. Let me elaborate:

1- Warriors are still as fast or faster than the high speed scout kbots. WHy should a well armed and high armored infantry kbot have such speed? Warriors are able to bypass assaults, and are able to rush into bases and reach the rear if there is any open route. They have the perfect combination of speed and armor to do this. This is a bad thing.

2- SUMOs are nice and slower, but their walk anim is no synched with their movements.

3- CANs are moving way too fast still.

4- Jets have terrible flight programs for attacking targets. I was losing freedom fighters on a 1-on-1 fight with a brawler, because after they attack they circle too close and get shot down while they circle. They circle so close that they are past the target for their second shot and have to circle again. In other words, fighter jets get one good hit in then circle endlessly and never get in another good shot again.

5- I consistenty lost fighter jets by being shot down at long range by ahnilators and sniper kbots. So, almost all my jet losses were due to ahnilators and brawlers. Two units that are not supposed to be AA. Why are ahnilators allowed to traverse so fast anyway? That was supposed to be their natural weakness.

6a- The new arty rocket kbot does not have a minimum attack range, so they are best as close range shotgun kbots.

6b- The new arty rocket kbot attacks aircraft, and the angle allows it to send rockets far across the map into enemy bases, way beyond the maximum range ring.

6c- In general, the new arty rocket kbot has seriously changed the balance of the game. It's rockets are high splash, which kills most lvl1 kbots in one hit. This has several serious repercussions: First it makes lvl1 units even more worthless once lvl2 starts showing up. It basically takes them completely out of the game. Secondly, it ruins the whole 'fodder' aspect of base assaults. Lvl1 units commonly accompany an assault to draw fire from single-shot defenses like ahnilators and HLTs. Well now the splash of the rocket kbot kills lvl1s in high amounts. In a few seconds, your assault force will be completely rid of any level 1 units, and weak lvl2 units. Further encouragining the worst part of the game: krogoth and goliath swarms.

7- Why is the commander able to build one of the longest range and powerful medium plasma turrets in the game? Immolators do not belong in the commanders build menu.

8- To end on a positive note, Lvl1 aa rockets are doing better against brawlers, which is very good. A team of 20 aa kbots is able to defend against a team of brawlers. I do believe that lvl1 aa towers are far too low HP. A brawler can kill an aa tower in a few seconds. So whena team of brawlers attacks a group of aa towers, they destroy the towers so quickly that there is no danger, even tho there may have been many towers.

FolCan · Post by **FolCan** » 25 Sep 2005, 08:31

Youre never happy are you?

They getting there

Warlord Zsinj · Post by **Warlord Zsinj** » 25 Sep 2005, 08:45

The issues he raises all seem to be valide, and significant enough to worth mentioning. Sounds like a fairly balanced and insightful post, not one to be attacked.

[needless jab]Of course, its a shame he is wasting his effort on XTA, when OTA's excellent balance is just waiting to be played with[/needless jab]

tanelorn · Post by **tanelorn** » 25 Sep 2005, 10:05

Well OTA has been debated enough. XTA is under development. OTA is just a conversion of 1997 OTA to TA Spring. It is not open to debate, as the values and the balance were set years ago.

FolCan · Post by **FolCan** » 25 Sep 2005, 10:20

They should have just stuck with OTA lol

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 25 Sep 2005, 10:45

*sigh*

1- Warriors are still as fast or faster than the high speed scout kbots. WHy should a well armed and high armored infantry kbot have such speed? Warriors are able to bypass assaults, and are able to rush into bases and reach the rear if there is any open route. They have the perfect combination of speed and armor to do this. This is a bad thing.

They are a RAIDING KBOT this is THEIR PURPOSE in xta they also have a WEAK WEAPON so they aren't all that great. rush into bases? they do make artillery useless BUT are weak to HLTs etc.

2- SUMOs are nice and slower, but their walk anim is no synched with their movements.

I don't think that the SYs even changed the move speed of the sumos, if they did they were slow enough already. and omfg their walk anim isn't synced what a SERIOUS balance issue :roll

3- CANs are moving way too fast still.

Remember your mention of cannon fodder? these are SLOW have a WEAK WEAPON and heavy armour (i.e. cannon fodder) how the hell can you complain when they can be outrun by almost anything!!!

4- Jets have terrible flight programs for attacking targets. I was losing freedom fighters on a 1-on-1 fight with a brawler, because after they attack they circle too close and get shot down while they circle. They circle so close that they are past the target for their second shot and have to circle again. In other words, fighter jets get one good hit in then circle endlessly and never get in another good shot again.

Ever heard of micromanagement? and a 1 on 1? for the cost/buildtime you should have AT LEAST 3-4 freedom fighters to make it a balanced fight

5- I consistenty lost fighter jets by being shot down at long range by ahnilators and sniper kbots. So, almost all my jet losses were due to ahnilators and brawlers. Two units that are not supposed to be AA. Why are ahnilators allowed to traverse so fast anyway? That was supposed to be their natural weakness.

YES one of the best things of oOTA was the way a Bertha could hit a peeper if it could. you think that the counter to a annihilator is freedom fighters? use a load of bombers or brawlers. and have you seen the reload time on that thing?

i mean omfg a defense which cost my opponent like 6k metal has shot down a whole freedom fighter which cost me like...nothing

6a- The new arty rocket kbot does not have a minimum attack range, so they are best as close range shotgun kbots.

no they are best used as mass guerilla units as their reload time is obscene and if you close with a enemy their low amount of HP will lead to their destruction!

6b- The new arty rocket kbot attacks aircraft, and the angle allows it to send rockets far across the map into enemy bases, way beyond the maximum range ring.

Yes so do Berthas etc. oh well it gets a slight say 20-30% range boost if it misses planes but the rockets are so damn inaccurate i doubt that they'll even hit something how about countering one with say 5 tanks spaced out? LEVEL 1 TANKS!

6c- In general, the new arty rocket kbot has seriously changed the balance of the game. It's rockets are high splash, which kills most lvl1 kbots in one hit. This has several serious repercussions: First it makes lvl1 units even more worthless once lvl2 starts showing up. It basically takes them completely out of the game. Secondly, it ruins the whole 'fodder' aspect of base assaults. Lvl1 units commonly accompany an assault to draw fire from single-shot defenses like ahnilators and HLTs. Well now the splash of the rocket kbot kills lvl1s in high amounts. In a few seconds, your assault force will be completely rid of any level 1 units, and weak lvl2 units. Further encouragining the worst part of the game: krogoth and goliath swarms.

No its a good SUMO or Goliath counter as it is fast enough to keep up with them and volley or salvo rockets at them without receiving fire back. a well spaced 5 or so level 1 tanks could easily kill one as its reload time is huge and those tanks are nice and fast

7- Why is the commander able to build one of the longest range and powerful medium plasma turrets in the game? Immolators do not belong in the commanders build menu.

Neither do the Adv labs according to oOTA and IMO but you don't see me complaining it lets more possibilities into the game like using vehicles but easily switching to adv kbots. The Immolator is extremely expensive early game and is a counter to a pop-up creep its very powerful but as i've said already a good level one swarm can take one quite easily if you get close or simply SPACE THEM OUT
EDIT: Oh yeah and upload the replay to FU and i'll have a look and criticise it to see if i can't improve your play and have a end to this noobish whining

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 25 Sep 2005, 10:47

tanelorn wrote:Well OTA has been debated enough. XTA is under development. OTA is just a conversion of 1997 OTA to TA Spring. It is not open to debate, as the values and the balance were set years ago.

I'd argue that alot of OTA balance has been changed by spring drasticly.

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 25 Sep 2005, 11:11

Min3mat wrote:*sigh*
1- Warriors are still as fast or faster than the high speed scout kbots. WHy should a well armed and high armored infantry kbot have such speed? Warriors are able to bypass assaults, and are able to rush into bases and reach the rear if there is any open route. They have the perfect combination of speed and armor to do this. This is a bad thing.
They are a RAIDING KBOT this is THEIR PURPOSE in xta they also have a WEAK WEAPON so they aren't all that great. rush into bases? they do make artillery useless BUT are weak to HLTs etc.

If they are as fast as tanelorn describes they won't be weak at all to HLTs, they will rush by them basicly unharmed. Even annihilators would have a hard time with them. The only effective defence would be brawlies, and even they would be pretty useless since they would be missing a high rate against moving targets

2- SUMOs are nice and slower, but their walk anim is no synched with their movements.
I don't think that the SYs even changed the move speed of the sumos, if they did they were slow enough already. and omfg their walk anim isn't synced what a SERIOUS balance issue :roll

He wasn't saying it was a balance issue, it's a bug. I think sumos did lose some of thier speed, they seem less effective then they were before...

3- CANs are moving way too fast still.
Remember your mention of cannon fodder? these are SLOW have a WEAK WEAPON and heavy armour (i.e. cannon fodder) how the hell can you complain when they can be outrun by almost anything!!!

I can't really speak to this one, but I will say that can's were basicly useless in the last version. Why would you even bother compared to sumos? a speed boost seems reasonable, but I would have to see them in action to judge...

4- Jets have terrible flight programs for attacking targets. I was losing freedom fighters on a 1-on-1 fight with a brawler, because after they attack they circle too close and get shot down while they circle. They circle so close that they are past the target for their second shot and have to circle again. In other words, fighter jets get one good hit in then circle endlessly and never get in another good shot again.
Ever heard of micromanagement? and a 1 on 1? for the cost/buildtime you should have AT LEAST 3-4 freedom fighters to make it a balanced fight

I compleatly agree with tanelorn. I shouldn't have too micromanage every one of my 50 jets just so they acctually attack effeciently.

5- I consistenty lost fighter jets by being shot down at long range by ahnilators and sniper kbots. So, almost all my jet losses were due to ahnilators and brawlers. Two units that are not supposed to be AA. Why are ahnilators allowed to traverse so fast anyway? That was supposed to be their natural weakness.
YES one of the best things of oOTA was the way a Bertha could hit a peeper if it could. you think that the counter to a annihilator is freedom fighters? use a load of bombers or brawlers. and have you seen the reload time on that thing? i mean omfg a defense which cost my opponent like 6k metal has shot down a whole freedom fighter which cost me like...nothing

Tanelorn: This is the reason for stealth fighters, long range defences won't shoot at them because they won't be picked up on radar. I can't say I understand the nessesity for instant firetracing myself, but I have to agree, it shouldn't be a shock when a heavy master defence structure takes out a L1 fighter. Annihilators DO have a pretty extream reload time, you can easly have another 2 fighters out by the time it reloads and fires one more fighter out of the sky.

6a- The new arty rocket kbot does not have a minimum attack range, so they are best as close range shotgun kbots.
no they are best used as mass guerilla units as their reload time is obscene and if you close with a enemy their low amount of HP will lead to their destruction!

They aren't best used as closerange shotgun kbots because they friendly fire all thier allys and get wasted by thier very low health at close range.

6b- The new arty rocket kbot attacks aircraft, and the angle allows it to send rockets far across the map into enemy bases, way beyond the maximum range ring.
Yes so do Berthas etc. oh well it gets a slight say 20-30% range boost if it misses planes but the rockets are so damn inaccurate i doubt that they'll even hit something how about countering one with say 5 tanks spaced out? LEVEL 1 TANKS!

Its increadibly difficult to intentionally attack aircraft in such a way that you gain range on your bombardment, usually it's more likely that you accidentally fire into your own defences when attacking aircraft with artillery units of any type.

6c- In general, the new arty rocket kbot has seriously changed the balance of the game. It's rockets are high splash, which kills most lvl1 kbots in one hit. This has several serious repercussions: First it makes lvl1 units even more worthless once lvl2 starts showing up. It basically takes them completely out of the game. Secondly, it ruins the whole 'fodder' aspect of base assaults. Lvl1 units commonly accompany an assault to draw fire from single-shot defenses like ahnilators and HLTs. Well now the splash of the rocket kbot kills lvl1s in high amounts. In a few seconds, your assault force will be completely rid of any level 1 units, and weak lvl2 units. Further encouragining the worst part of the game: krogoth and goliath swarms.
No its a good SUMO or Goliath counter as it is fast enough to keep up with them and volley or salvo rockets at them without receiving fire back. a well spaced 5 or so level 1 tanks could easily kill one as its reload time is huge and those tanks are nice and fast

its a TERRIBLE HORRIBLE sumo or goli counter. They don't do anywhere near enough damage per a salvo to accually phase a sumo or goli, largly because they are so inaccurate that they just kindof splash uselessly around the big units. Not to mention they get raped by supporting fast units such as cans or reapers. Really all the raven is great for is seriously screwing up low level base defences and L1 units... I'd argue however that the new bulldogs are much more of a contender for heavy unit countering, they move nearly twice as fast as they did before, so much so they they should be able to pretty easily roll on right by base defences or if nessicary dodge goli shots until they kill the thing.

7- Why is the commander able to build one of the longest range and powerful medium plasma turrets in the game? Immolators do not belong in the commanders build menu.
Neither do the Adv labs according to oOTA and IMO but you don't see me complaining it lets more possibilities into the game like using vehicles but easily switching to adv kbots. The Immolator is extremely expensive early game and is a counter to a pop-up creep its very powerful but as i've said already a good level one swarm can take one quite easily if you get close or simply SPACE THEM OUT
EDIT: Oh yeah and upload the replay to FU and i'll have a look and criticise it to see if i can't improve your play and have a end to this noobish whining

It breaks the game's balance on small maps. Immolaters work fine on big open maps like castles, wide open battle, or CPIA, but they really screw over tight quarters maps. I agree with lorn here, they should be limited to L1 builders and farks/resbots. The figging turret is more powerful then gaurdians for gods sake.

Kixxe · Post by **Kixxe** » 25 Sep 2005, 11:32

And why can't you just post this in the treadh MEANT to discuss XTA balance?

The reson we have that treadh is that we DON'T have 5 treadhs complaning about xta balance...

But yea, your points are right i guess =/.

Warriors aren't THAT unblanced.. but yea, a litthe slower they could be... i suggest... pyro speed? a litthe faster?

Snipers should be fast tracking, since they should be able to shoot down pretty fast units coming towards you. ( Pyros, for example)

Cans your completly right about! Why buy a slow, medium armor with a useless wepon deathtrap? Plus, it can't climb mountins good compared to other k-bots...

The new arty bot... yea... I say we spread the range even further, and force it to fire in Hig trajetory... Try shotgunning something, and you'll only have a rain of rockets... (mmmm.... Rockets ^^)
Meh about the range thing, fix berthas first in any case... -.-*

Immolators are made for those who stall their economy to build a strong rush defence. Immolators are very exspensive, so you'll have a Con k-bot before you can build one anyway. This is just so you don't have to mess around with con's to build stuff, and can expand argesvly.

Warlord Zsinj · Post by **Warlord Zsinj** » 25 Sep 2005, 13:12

min3mat, seriously, your arguments are really weak at best. You don't attempt to remain rational or balanced at all throughout your post, and the points you raise aren't well thought out or probed. Not to mention the fact that your English is terrible, which significantly hurts your case.

You really need to rethink the way you post at these forums before people will start to take you seriously.

Post by **jcnossen** » 25 Sep 2005, 15:40

Did anyone actually get killed because a bunch of warriors?

Also I have to agree with min3mat on the freedom fighters, ofcourse you should lose them in a 1-on-1 fight with a brawler, they are much cheaper.

Also tanelorn, lvl1 aa towers (missile towers) are very cheap and therefore should have low HP too. Put up a set of properly placed missile towers at the price of the brawlers team, and things will probably turn out different. A group of 6 brawlers would have to be countered with a group of 30 defenders, and then the defenders will win.

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 25 Sep 2005, 15:48

Someone agrees with me! And not just anyone! Zaphod!

HellToupee · Post by **HellToupee** » 25 Sep 2005, 18:21

well then a submarine should lose to a battleship 1v1 cos they cost more. While a mere freedom fighter should not shootdown brawlers in droves its a fighter a brawler shouldnt be able to beat it 1v1 simply because it cant hit it, like it was in the orginal.

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 25 Sep 2005, 19:29

shutup...do you even know what i'm talking about? i'm saying that units shouldn't be able to be utterly slaughtered by their counter although their counter should be able to beat them cost wise (1k M brawlers die to 1k M flakkers etc)
And in the original ANYTHING could hit ANYTHING if you got damn lucky

Aun · Post by **Aun** » 25 Sep 2005, 19:43

Well, Ravens can hit anything without being lucky. They're powerful, pretty long ranged and have a large blast radius.

Yes, they have a long reload time and low health, but they're likely to kill most units before they get attacked.

tanelorn · Post by **tanelorn** » 25 Sep 2005, 20:11

Min3Mat: There are always a handlful of people on a forum who think it's their outlet after getting their books knocked out of their hands at school and losing their lunch money to the school bully once again. You are one of them.

Kixxe, I used a new thread because this addresses the newest release.

As far as Cans, build some and see how fast they move. In XTA they are moving very fast. As fast as a light tank. The deal with kbots is that they have legs, not wheels. They aren't supposed to move super fast. And in the tradition of OTA, Sumos and Cans moved fairly slow because they had very high HP and a powerful weapon.

Attack kbots with thick armor and a decent weapon should not be moving at scout speeds. They should move at infantry speed or slower.

Next time you play, build a pack of warriors and send them into the enemy base, spread out a bit so they aren't single file. You will see that only a very thick defense can prevent them from reaching the rear of the base. Once there they are protected from many base defenses and draw arc-fire from howitzers, etc. It's all a bad deal.

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 25 Sep 2005, 20:28

look at Aun's signature. thats what i do everytime i waste time reading your posts.
Warlord Zsinj managed to go as far on the intelluctual scale as saying that my points were all wrong and urs all right wihtout reason except my english isn't perfect. You didn't even get that far, u pissed me off without even saying i was wrong
A thread about xta balance is a thread about xta balance, no matter which version currently
You think that people going kbots shouldn't even get a effective rush tool? the freaker and AK are fast but weak the obvious upgrade for level2 is a reasonably fast and effectively powerful unit with better armour which is what the warrior is what else should happen to the warrior armed with a crappy weapon and medium armour whose cost is huge compared to what u getting would u remove its best feature which is speed? (not @ idiot tanelorn but @ the SYs and the pro ppl who make balance changes)

Kixxe · Post by **Kixxe** » 25 Sep 2005, 20:57

Kixxe, I used a new thread because this addresses the newest release.

Oh, so it's about the balance IN THE NEW VERSION? well that changes everything! >.>

Just post in the damn treadh!

As far as Cans, build some and see how fast they move. In XTA they are moving very fast. As fast as a light tank. The deal with kbots is that they have legs, not wheels. They aren't supposed to move super fast. And in the tradition of OTA, Sumos and Cans moved fairly slow because they had very high HP and a powerful weapon.

Yes, and sumos move slow. But they got Enought hp to stand agsint most beatings, they don't stumble to a halt as soon as ANYTHING infront of them dies and leaves a copse, they have the range of a HLT, and the wepon of 1├é┬¢, and can aculy climb pretty good for being so big. Cans on the other hand are not much faster then a sumo, have a sucky wepon and can't climb good. The only good thing about them is that they have an ''okay'' amount of HP for their price...
M3M is right, they are best used as cannon-fodder.

About the Warrior issue.

Both are right, both are wrong.

Warriors are overpowerd, but not to the degree that we gotta go and call 911. Warrios should be slowed down, but not to degree of say, a Can?

OR! Warrios = more exspensive. This way you can't make many, meaning less trouble stopping em. Most trouble with warriors happens when they come in swarms right?

Oh, and for the record, i stopped about 20 warrios with 13 pyros, a hlt and a sumo. And they did'nt do much damage. But still, im awesome, so don't take my word it's gonna work for you=P

min3mat, seriously, your arguments are really weak at best. You don't attempt to remain rational or balanced at all throughout your post, and the points you raise aren't well thought out or probed. Not to mention the fact that your English is terrible, which significantly hurts your case.

You really need to rethink the way you post at these forums before people will start to take you seriously.

Oh, shush. You need to rethink the way your posting. Even if you try to sound nice, you make your stament with a litthe ''knowitall-ism''. I don't know, but everytime you complain about someones spelling i imange you like a 30 year old english teacher from the 1800.

Oh, and there's not much wrong about M3M's english. This isen't a grammar sesion still right?

Oh, and from now on, could we channel personal diputes true PM so i don't have to hear all this crap?

Watch and learn.

Btw, M3M! Your grammar is fine, but could you space things up a bit? It's like a big sandwitch of words >.>.

Se? And the diffrence is makes is that your post is only gonna make M3M hate you more, while my post, asking nicely, can aculy make a diffrence!

I'd argue that alot of OTA balance has been changed by spring drasticly.

Change the balance then? Oh wait, it's OTA, everything is stuck as it is, good or not...

Oh well...

W00t! time for something else!

tanelorn · Post by **tanelorn** » 25 Sep 2005, 21:03

Kbots aren't about rushing, they are about multitudes and versatility. They climb hills, have a wide selection of abilities, and cost less so can be produced more numerously.

As I said before, kbots walk, they don't have wheels or treads for moving fast. Having kbots that outpace fast little tanks is wrong.

As for the ahnilator, the problem is how quickly it aims at targets. It can track a fast moving jet and shoot it out of the sky at maximum range. It has awesome power and range. A natural negative of a defense like this should be that it has a slow turret, because it's big and heavy.

TA Spring does have issues with allowing dedicated land defense to shoot at air, and dedicated aa to shoot at land. Uberhack did a great job with this. Berthas dont aim at jets, and aa units don't shoot at tanks.

I was playing on a wide open combat map where one player had his planes circling our bases. The enemy had punishers and toasters set up all over. Our bases were constantly being pummeled by stray shots from punishers firing at jets.

The deal is, with ballistic weapons, the max range should be THE MAX RANGE. 45 degrees achieves maximum range for any ballistic weapon. That should be where the range ring is drawn for these defenses. A punishers max range should be when it is aiming at 45 degrees for maximum distance. This would prevent this issue and cheating via first person control. Of course, they should also simply not track aircraft at all.

Kixxe · Post by **Kixxe** » 25 Sep 2005, 21:11

Kbots aren't about rushing, they are about multitudes and versatility. They climb hills, have a wide selection of abilities, and cost less so can be produced more numerously.

As I said before, kbots walk, they don't have wheels or treads for moving fast. Having kbots that outpace fast little tanks is wrong.

Yes, but the fact is that it dosent apply to all just becuase they are the type of unit.

And if your so diliking about fast k-bots, why don't you just start a campain agsint zippers? They are fast, they got legs!

Make zippers vechiles! Make Zippers veichales!

But yea, you nailed the disception of k-bots.

The deal is, with ballistic weapons, the max range should be THE MAX RANGE. 45 degrees achieves maximum range for any ballistic weapon. That should be where the range ring is drawn for these defenses. A punishers max range should be when it is aiming at 45 degrees for maximum distance. This would prevent this issue and cheating via first person control. Of course, they should also simply not track aircraft at all.

Have been discussed before... dosen't work, gravity issues... would make close range wepons useless to balistics and so on yadayada....

As for the ahnilator, the problem is how quickly it aims at targets. It can track a fast moving jet and shoot it out of the sky at maximum range. It has awesome power and range. A natural negative of a defense like this should be that it has a slow turret, because it's big and heavy.

Yes, but then it can't track fast moving ground units! i mean, panthers, and pyros, and warrios, and zippers... all these will just run past your ultimate defence station...

oh sure, mixed defence. Still, it needs to target pretty fast units, but still not be able to target planes. It should't be slow... it should be ''Slower''.

Spring RTS Engine

0.64b1 still has plenty of balance issues

0.64b1 still has plenty of balance issues