Exploring the FPS side of Spring in constructive ways.

[IllvilJa]

Hello!

It is waaay to late at night (or in the morning??) to post ANYTHING on the internet right now but I just got this brilliant idea I have to share with you!

I've been pondering how to approach the project/dream/fantasy of (ab)using the Sprig engine for creating a 1st person shooter like the Battlefield series where players control both infantry as well as vehicles in furious battles.

Of course, in order to get there (or to end up somewhere else perhaps, with a new unexpected fun game to play), one need to take some first step and I've tried to figure out a small (minimal??) enough step to actually make the damn thing happen (family life with wife and 4 kids urgently demands these steps to be SMALL).

Key driver is to make ppl play in FPS mode and hopefully enjoy it despite it's warts. Once that happens and goes on, feedback will surface on WHAT warts ppl want to get fixed and thus gives indication of what new features one can consider to add to the Spring Engine to enhance the FPS gaming experience (OF COURSE without hurting the current RTS experience). Some features are easier to add than others. E.g having a horizon that actually tilts as a result of the vehicle being controlled in FPS mode being tilted as it traverses terrain is no doubgt easier to implement than it is to implement dynamic ensyncing capabilities that allows for players to join and leave the game on an ad-hoc basis (like they do in the Battlefield games today).

So, I first played with the concept of creating (yet) another mod, focused on being extremely simple in setup and in graphics (only one tracked tank destroyer kind of vehicle, with only one kind of ammo), only exposing a few of the aspects of FPS warfare to the players and thus requiring less FPS mode warts to be "fixed". Once this mod with it's vehicle plays nicely and stuff in it behaves sensibly, more stuff can be added, like wheeled vehicles, which in turn will expose NEW warts in the Spring engine, warts that has to be addressed. (The warts wheeled vehicles have are that they today turn just like tanks, the entire vehicle rotates on the spot, around it's center, instead of rotating realisticly due to the front wheels turning and the vehicle driving forward or backward). And once THAT is sorted out we can add infantry etc etc.

But even if that mod might be a reality (don't hold your breath though, I still consider it to be in the "fantasy" or "dream" state) I got another, more simple idea (and hence my hybris that it is soooo brilliant...):

Take a load of players (my old Battlefield 2 clan comes to mind), bring them together at the same time online after ensuring all of them have installed Spring and some appropriate mod (some appropriate release of Spring44, PURE, NOTA for instance) and then let everyone join a game.

The game is played as follows:
* There are only 2 sides.
* Every player can control and command anything on his side.
* ALL units (no exceptions!!!) will have HOLD FIRE set permanently during their entire lifetime in the game.
* In order for any shots to be fired in the game (and thus for any combat to take place at all), players must ENTER UNITS IN FPS MODE! Once that is done, the battlefield is all theirs and they are free to engange enemy units. If necessary, they can exit FPS mode and command the unit to retreat to a place where resupply/repair might happen (and while that happens, take control of another unit and keep fighting or perhaps participate in RTS production admin etc).
* One can even consider the HOLD POSITION setting to be enforced as well requiring FPS mode for even moving armed units or for patrolling with scout units (but I'm less sure about the game play fun of that one though)

I think this would be a pretty OK way to encourage fairly large scale FPS play in Spring. It is not perfect, but if it is good enough for FPSers to actually enjoy the game a lot is won. The above, I hope, will encourage a game where one or two players per side remain "commanders" of their side and keep up production in RTS mode as well as gives overall orders to their side whilst the bulk of the players take command over appropriate units to carry out actions of combat. Of course, it will be a priority for the commanders to ensure that units of the right size are produced. If there is little resources, build the units small enough so every player in the team get's a unit to fight in.

As all firing done by units on the battlefield has to be controlled by and initiated by a human player, the normal strengths and weaknesses of units will not necessarily apply: in PURE, the missile tower normally eats enemy bombers for lunch but now as it will require a human to enter the tower in time to fire the missiles, a bomber might actually pose a much bigger threat. If noone has entered the AA-towers, the bomber will just fly past them (or without any risk bombing the AA-towers themselves to smithereens).

Of course, managing to get past enemy defenses with an armed unit and reaching the enemy side's production infrastructure, or perhaps even better, the enemy's stock of inactive units, can also be great fun. Not to mention blowing up enemy radars to ensure they get blind etc etc.

Coordinated attacks will be a HUGE challenge (as they are in the Battlefield series as well) but they can be immensely fun to attempt.

Your thoughts on this? I know, there is only one way to find out if this works or not... that is to TEST IT!

If it works out well it might be worth considering a change to the engine where the host of a game can choose to enforce "HOLD FIRE" to force FPS play. Perhaps one can even add the option of selecting certain types of units that allowed to have "RETURN FIRE"/"FIRE AT WILL" turned on. Perhaps this partially can be achieved with a LUA gadget all players are required to activate.

Ok, enough text for now.... See you later!

[hunterw]

hunterw sez:


if u want to play a fps



play a fps

[Warlord Zsinj]

We can laugh as much as we want, the fact of the matter is that in non-TA players, the FPS mode is one of the biggest selling points.

[Machiosabre]

I think you're both right, a game made specifically for fps in spring probably isn't a good idea, but fps could be still be a great part of a game.

if fps got a sort of nice gui and a bit better controls it might be fun.
people always enjoy looking at at rtses from a one unit perspective, it gives a nice feeling of scale.

[Hoi]

It's all very possible http://spring.clan-sy.com/phpbb/viewtop ... 14&t=16021

That has a working 3'th person camera (alteast it worked on 0.76)

It's also possible to make a suspension script, and I guess that strafing is also possible, I might help you out a bit if you really want to do this.

[smoth]

The engine is not suitable for it. beyond gimmicky toy projects this engine will not cut it for a FPS.

[Forboding Angel]

I think you're both right, a game made specifically for fps in spring probably isn't a good idea, but fps could be still be a great part of a game.

if fps got a sort of nice gui and a bit better controls it might be fun.
people always enjoy looking at at rtses from a one unit perspective, it gives a nice feeling of scale.

^^ This man speaks the truth. Some improvements to fps would be rather welcome. Plus, admit it, it would be super cool to hop into your favorite unit during the last cleanup battle of a game and start shooting stuff

[AF]

Odd that nobodies considered point and click style shooters/rpgs

[smoth]

hey man, I got no idea af, but this is about fps gaming *roll eyes*

it would be possible to do a point and click thing. I believe something like diablo would be possible if we had the ability to bind models to origon points.

[AF]

models to origon points? I dont udnerstand what your getting at that we cant already do

[smoth]

Say I make a sword model with an origin in the handle and a human model with an origin in the hand. I could then bind the sword to the hand. Right now all we have is ROUGH binding lua being worked on by pressure line(on and off work as he gets time) Last I recalled it didn't support the reflective/glow/transparency shader of texture 2.

Unless I was going to make a model with all armor variants where I can toggle them on and off with show/hide(which would get ridiculous) OR I do a morph into different variants of the character. It would be ugly.

the rest, weapon damage, spells, inventory can all be handled with a lot of lua work. However, it is all still possible just the character/monster models would be ugly.

[AF]

Ah like little connectors to connect things together with!

[smoth]

yeah in many engines you can bind objects to points on a model. We cannot do that in spring, if we could it would a very cool feature and I think you were the one to origonally suggest this when we were talking about multiple materials per model in some old and dead thread.

[ZellSF]

We can laugh as much as we want, the fact of the matter is that in non-TA players, the FPS mode is one of the biggest selling points.

How's that a fact? Sounds like an assumption to me.

[AF]

Zell requires statistical evidence of his incorrectness before reconciliation can occur

[BlackLiger]

Break up the flamewar or you'll all receive punishment for it. I don't care who started it.

[smoth]

I am not mad at anyone liger, I think op can tell I am just messing with him.

[Warlord Zsinj]

We can laugh as much as we want, the fact of the matter is that in non-TA players, the FPS mode is one of the biggest selling points.

How's that a fact? Sounds like an assumption to me.

Because if you speak to anyone who doesn't know anything about Spring, it is a fact that always raises eyebrows when you mention that you can jump into any unit and drive it around the battlefield. It's a gimmick, and an averagely-implemented one at that - but people love it.

I was interviewed for PCG for IW about a year ago. In the several pages of information I gave them, I mentioned briefly that you could hop into any unit and fly around the battlefield. Guess what they decided to use as the penultimate line at the end of the article.

Spring isn't built for FPS's, but you'd be foolish to ignore it entirely because it is one of Spring's biggest selling points, even if it is just a gimmick.

[Gota]

ALL spring fps needs is better controls similair to normal fpses.
If that is done fpses will be made naturally by spring devs.
Battlezone style gameplay would than also be possible which would be an awsome way of experiancing spring IMO.

[Hoi]

ALL spring fps needs is better controls similair to normal fpses.
If that is done fpses will be made naturally by spring devs.
Battlezone style gameplay would than also be possible which would be an awsome way of experiancing spring IMO.

Lua.