Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Various things about Spring that do not fit in any of the other forums listed below, including forum rules.

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Otherside
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Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Post by Otherside » 31 Aug 2008, 12:02

Firstly ill put a disclaimer here before someone nerd rages about CA fanboyism

Disclaimer

This topic is about discussion i will not be bashing any people or mods and my views are my views (just as mod balance is subjective). Also i will refrain from mentioning CA cause people take it badly when i do


Now...

In my honest opinion and from experiences ive had trying to get new people into spring the main problem is the main mod (BA) i dont mean to bash the mod, BA was a good mod in its time it helped keep spring activity during its low point but i think its past its lifetime (at least as far as main mod goes).

Now you may think im saying this because im a CA fanboy but the truth is id rather see any other mod which makes better use of the engine have its share of the popularity (pretty much any other Spring mod/game uses the engine more).

From what ive seen ive tried to get a ton of people into spring even 30 + people in one LAN alot gave up cause of various problems (user friendliness was a big one) but a bigger percentage just didnt want to play BA. They enjoyed other mods more , i tried to get them online again after lan a few tried but were put off and never actually got into a game again.

Now springs problem is that unlike other opensource projects were a main game is made by the devs on the engine and people make mods off it. XTA was abandoned by the devs and the devs are focusing on improving spring (which is better imo) but it has lead to the situation were Spring as an engine has way more potential than what the "main" mod (BA) shows. Ofcourse i understand perfectly that BA is just suposed to be that balance mod with stable solid gameplay and "good" balance. And in some extent it achieves those goals but its doing more harm than good.

BA being the unofficial flagship mod for spring quite honestly makes spring look like crap i know that graphics arent whats important in a game (But it does help especially in attracting new players) + some people dont enjoy the game play .It also doesnt make use of other features but ofc it doesnt want to because BA wants to be a OTA clone with little to no changes which is fine (apart from the legality).

Now the problem with this default mod syndrome is that new players are pretty much forced into BA because honestly new players dont have the patience to wait around in a lobby trying to get a game. If they dont like BA they will most probably quit and not touch spring again (BIG PROBLEM).

Now the split lobby i personally think its a good idea to keep *A mods and Original content mods seperated. Apart from the original content mods really proving what spring can do and use the engine to the fullest there also shouldn't be a mod monopoly so if you dont like one game you might like another (this ofcourse requires a semi decent playerbase)

Default mod syndrome = EPIC FAIL
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Imperium
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Re: Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Post by Imperium » 31 Aug 2008, 14:30

yawn
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Lolsquad_Steven
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Re: Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Post by Lolsquad_Steven » 31 Aug 2008, 14:34

I think people play games that they think are fun not games that make full use of their engine.
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ZellSF
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Re: Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Post by ZellSF » 31 Aug 2008, 14:35

Now the problem with this default mod syndrome is that new players are pretty much forced into BA because honestly new players dont have the patience to wait around in a lobby trying to get a game. If they dont like BA they will most probably quit and not touch spring again (BIG PROBLEM).
Less impatient players in Spring sounds like a good idea to me, not a problem.
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Sabutai
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Re: Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Post by Sabutai » 31 Aug 2008, 16:27

Most people play Spring for the TA feeling. I do so. To generate a new wave of players we would need to make an new and original game. That means not BA, not CA and not SW:IW. KP is cool as its made from scratch but lacks the strategic depths of TA.

IMO we'd need an original, balanced and shiny IP mod supplied with the installer. CU in 2 years ^^
Otherside wrote:...but it has lead to the situation were Spring as an engine has way more potential than what the "main" mod (BA) shows...

...BA being the unofficial flagship mod for spring quite honestly makes spring look like crap...
BA is neither the main mod nor its unofficial flagship. It's the most popular, thats all. If you want to change THAT, get rid of the community.
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manored
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Re: Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Post by manored » 31 Aug 2008, 17:22

The main mod is defined by popularity, not by some magic button you can toggle off :) We cant really do anything other than wait for people to get tired of BA...
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Sertse
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Re: Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Post by Sertse » 31 Aug 2008, 18:18

Or we could whine in hindsight that the SY should of made XTA only a spiritual successor of TA (that's what they call Sup Com I think ) rather than a variant of TA.

Just enough to capture the then TA community, and get a core playerbase, but not set a precedent that Spring is "TA in 3d" etc.

We need a time machine.
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hunterw
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Re: Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Post by hunterw » 31 Aug 2008, 18:24

default mod syndrome is keeping spring alive
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Hoi
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Re: Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Post by Hoi » 31 Aug 2008, 18:27

Now the split lobby i personally think its a good idea to keep *A mods and Original content mods seperated. Apart from the original content mods really proving what spring can do and use the engine to the fullest there also shouldn't be a mod monopoly so if you dont like one game you might like another (this ofcourse requires a semi decent playerbase)
Spring is simply not big enough for this...
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tombom
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Re: Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Post by tombom » 31 Aug 2008, 18:55

Imperium wrote:yawn
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Felix the Cat
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Re: Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Post by Felix the Cat » 31 Aug 2008, 21:51

Did somebody call for the Waaaambulance?

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Drone_Fragger
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Re: Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Post by Drone_Fragger » 01 Sep 2008, 00:20

Every time I feel like playing spring again I see people replying to threads like this and then I think "Why the fuck do I want to play this game" and go and play something else.
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Neddie
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Re: Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Post by Neddie » 01 Sep 2008, 02:13

I'd just ignore it and play anyway, Drone.

Other, as one of the most qualified people to speak on the variety of content playable upon this engine (And personally quite committed to a vision of Spring as more than just a TA replacement or a GPL utopia), I think you have it all wrong. You cannot instigate change by telling people their actions are incorrect or destructive; you cannot force people to pursue and enjoy alternative content by telling them that what they do now is "EPIC FAIL." This attitude is not productive.

Make something that people will enjoy and provide it. Advertise elsewhere for new players. Do something rather than rage against the "way things are". The "way things are" will pass into history when a better fit for the desires of the player base is provided.

In the meantime, we have strong sub-communities of core players for a number of content packages, not the least of which being CA. With a little organization and individual dedication you can use the current players as the gateway for new ones outside Spring. It is all about perception; people will come to what interests them provided it is available.
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Saktoth
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Re: Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Post by Saktoth » 01 Sep 2008, 03:50

BA being springs main mod is a problem. Its tied to OTA IP so we can never go fully open source and cant distribute without disclaimers. It uses 10 year old models and doesnt look like a modern game.

Its also stable, has a large, fixed playerbase and is keeping spring alive. Without BA, we probably wouldnt have nearly as many players. Splitting the lobby is bad for precisely this reason- BA offers an already established playerbase, making it much easier to get players, just because people have the engine installed and start the client regularly- even if they've never heard of your game you have a potential playerbase. It would be better if some -other- mod were doing that, one we could distribute openly, one that looked better. So how do we fix this?

We make a game that is better than BA. We recruit from within and from outside the community. We build our own playerbase for these mods, and we give people a reason to play our mods. That doesnt mean we have to kill BA, or stop people playing BA. We have to make something that is even more popular than BA, not necessarily with BA players, but in general. The onus is on the developers, all we can expect of the players is perhaps that they would acknowledge a polite request to try our game.
To generate a new wave of players we would need to make an new and original game. That means not BA, not CA and not SW:IW.
This sounds like someone who has not played SW:IW. Its not TA-based, its gameplay barely resembles anything TA based either.
Most people play Spring for the TA feeling. I do so.
Play Hardcore Annihilation to have your mind blown by how little BA is like OTA. To say BA is not like OTA is not an insult though- BA is better than OTA.
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Gota
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Re: Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Post by Gota » 01 Sep 2008, 04:32

Just you think that CA is obviously better than BA..that is your true problem,Otherside,cause some dont agree(and even if you try and deny it,its clear this post was fueled by your desire that CA becomes more dominant).
As for legality:
legal shmigal,players dont care about that.
when all models are done BA can be legal as well.
just replace models replace names and gg,keep playing BA.
CA uses LUA,yes,and more visual effects,but apparently players dont agree that all that effort is directed correctly.
"all that the engine can do".
If the engine can do many things it doesnt mean a mod/game should include them all.
The engine is not tailored to a specific rts game but is meant to be a general rts engine.

When you make CA good enough people will play it.
You cant say people dont try CA.
Most people know CA is very supported and has a few devs and many hours are put into it,something that plays into your hands.
Here is a tip.
If you want to implement some totaly different gameplay and you can invision it,stop all releases,make it,than release and playtest.
If CA is just gonna be half OTA half experimental features or exprimental game ideas mix,do not expect it to become the main mod.
OTA was awsome and it only makes sense spring would have an ota representative as an RTS engine since OTA's gamestyle has not become obsulete at all.
In fact A commercial company made a game that is in many ways like OTA(Supcom).

BA and the likes represent an excellent gameplay design,so good in fact that no other spring mod was able to create something equal in quality(thats of course my personal opinion).
Whether you like it or not,the "most popular mod" is actually decided by the better players who care more about gameplay than new experimental features or visual quality.
Competetive players always drag all else behind them.
OTA mods started from a pretty awsome gameplay basis while other spring mods started off as visual theme mods basing their appeal on their visual differance and thus are lacking in gameplay by their own self defined creation method.
It does not mean their developers are bad or dont know what they are doing,it jsut means they had to focus on other things to get something fresh established,but now they have a long road of gameplay shaping.
If they prove to be competant at that than,and only than,will their mods become powerhouses on their own.
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REVENGE
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Re: Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Post by REVENGE » 01 Sep 2008, 04:43

CA / BA comparison is getting worse and worse, mostly due to the fact that CA isn't really trying to be a bread and butter AA replacement. It's diverging at speed away from OTA theme and gameplay completely, which really isn't a bad thing considering how many OTA based mods are still running.

Spring started out as an RTS engine with the short-term goal of running TA content in OTA based mods, and the long-term goal of becoming the best open source RTS engine available. The latter probably won't be achieved, and the former is what continues to attract new players.
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hunterw
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Re: Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Post by hunterw » 01 Sep 2008, 05:20

Saktoth wrote:BA being springs main mod is a problem. Its tied to OTA IP so we can never go fully open source and cant distribute without disclaimers. It uses 10 year old models and doesnt look like a modern game.

Its also stable, has a large, fixed playerbase and is keeping spring alive. Without BA, we probably wouldnt have nearly as many players. Splitting the lobby is bad for precisely this reason- BA offers an already established playerbase, making it much easier to get players, just because people have the engine installed and start the client regularly- even if they've never heard of your game you have a potential playerbase. It would be better if some -other- mod were doing that, one we could distribute openly, one that looked better. So how do we fix this?

We make a game that is better than BA. We recruit from within and from outside the community. We build our own playerbase for these mods, and we give people a reason to play our mods. That doesnt mean we have to kill BA, or stop people playing BA. We have to make something that is even more popular than BA, not necessarily with BA players, but in general. The onus is on the developers, all we can expect of the players is perhaps that they would acknowledge a polite request to try our game.
As usual, Saktoth is right on point.

If all mods were equally popular, the playerbase would be fragmented in to lots of tiny shards, sort of similar to how the UT series is now. You need a sort of oligopoly of mods in order to keep people around. When there's enough of a playerbase, everything can become self-sustaining. Spring is has a VERY SMALL threshold for this! Players can:

1. Be anywhere on earth, as ping is not nearly important as say an FPS
2. Join relatively small games. FPS and MMOs and whatnot need dozens, hundreds, thousands of people. A big RTS game is 8 players.


Drawing a larger playerbase to Spring will result in people trickling down to all the other mods. Some people must think that if newbies download BA with Spring they will never attempt to play any other mod, and that's just dumb. The plethora of mods we have are a direct result of people here not being fulfilled by what BA/AA had to offer.

Multiplayer games need people playing them to stay afloat. It seems obvious, but it's worth drilling in to everyone's heads. BA gaining popularity is a good thing for EVERYONE even if you hate it.

A con for this is BA's OTA content, and the sort of grey-area legality.
A pro is the fact that BA is the most popular mod currently, and it transitions quite easily for OTA players.


Is there any real fear of lawsuits or somesuch due to the OTA content? Seems like that just ends up being free publicity.
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Teutooni
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Re: Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Post by Teutooni » 01 Sep 2008, 08:50

Easy to say you need to make something better than BA to replace it. There is something in OTA that makes it stand out. The balance in complexity, pace (potentially exponential economy growth, but not unmanagably fast or anything) and scale (this is where supcom fell short imo, it had too "epic" of a scale to be enjoyable), along with several awesome gameplay features like physics, reclaiming and a large variety of unit types (2 land types, surface sea, sub, air, hover, amphib) each with their own builders and factories. These are things BA is preserving, and has even improved the balance - not talking about unit stats, but the scale and pace etc.

Make something better? Yes, good luck with that, westwood failed, blizzard failed. Hell, even ChrisT failed. :lol:

Don't get me wrong, it's good to be optimistic. Maybe some day, when all the planets align, someone comes up with something better. Still, it's silly to say your game is better than ota/ba because "lol 10 year old game". Which game is that insulting, the game that has endured the test of time, or yours since it can't beat the fossil even with all the new fancy graphics, "engine features" and supposed hindsight?

Personal opinion of a die-hard OTA fanboi. :P
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Otherside
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Re: Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Post by Otherside » 01 Sep 2008, 09:02

lol at all of you go read the disclaimer and GTFO this has nothing to do with CA
Last edited by Otherside on 01 Sep 2008, 09:04, edited 1 time in total.
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Sabutai
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Re: Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Post by Sabutai » 01 Sep 2008, 09:03

Teutooni wrote:...
+1000000000000000000000
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