Sovereignty of Units, or when Dgunning allies is acceptable.

[manored]

Some people dont seen to never ever look to chat at all and ignore points completly... its like you were playing alongside a wicked AI. I remember one game where one guy built each of each construction his commy could build in line and order, making one of each unit the factories could make and seending then to die, and nothing more than this. As some have guessed he never said anything during the whole game, beside the critics and even insults we threw at him.

[CarRepairer]

The scenario lurker keeps mentioning is where I used an aircon, at least 20-30 minutes into the game built a geo across the map near a teammate. That teammate then reclaimed it to build a behemoth. We had pretty much lost by then anyway (it never finished).

So what if that behemoth could have saved us? What if it couldn't? What if it wasn't across the map from me, but only 49% across the map. What if it was 51%. What if the person who reclaimed my unit was wrong to do so? What if they were right to do so? What if I really needed the energy from that plant?

My point is, you can't know all the what-ifs. And if we leave it up for interpretation, we will have nothing but trouble. So it's easier to just have an absolute rule. Then no one can be blamed for not taking into account every what-if.

And it's not like it's impossible to work around it. If messages don't work, there's labels and map drawing. Over 90% of the time if someone asks me for something or indicates a resource he will be taking by drawing, I comply. It's easy to be flexible when you know what to expect. And it's easy to get mad when a teammate takes something of yours by force.

It IS just a game after all, and I'd rather lose the game with teammates who respect eachother, than win with those who don't. That is why I compare it to cheating.

[Google_Frog]

Some people dont seen to never ever look to chat at all and ignore points completly... its like you were playing alongside a wicked AI. I remember one game where one guy built each of each construction his commy could build in line and order, making one of each unit the factories could make and seending then to die, and nothing more than this. As some have guessed he never said anything during the whole game, beside the critics and even insults we threw at him.

That's what I do when playing a new mod but in sandbox mode. You should have told him he can host his own game and start it with no players if he wants to experiment a bit with the units.

Some people's definition of attacking an ally could imply that inactivity is attacking. If they're inactive you're more likely to lose which is like them attacking you.

[Scratch]

Man I don't rely on allies at all really, as a pro player you need to look at the situation and realize your options are rely on said ally and lose or fukin' do some mad playing and save the game for everybody.

Oftentimes in DSD my allies are doing this so my build order basically ignores them, though if their dumbass doesn't get out in the field and fight then the game is usually over pretty quick.

I look for two things in players, that is are they willing to fight, if so I throw my full weight behind it, especially if they show alot of initiative in the field. Having an aggressive noob is better alot I find than having a defensive pro. The noob will keep them busy and half scared while I actually back him up (cause he doesn't have sufficient game knowledge).

If they are going to play like dumbasses and not try win or fight at all, and are completely ignoring their allies which is obvious, then every option is on the table.

I dont see why people play the game if it's not to win. If you want to make big explosions, why not build a bunch of e storages and put your com in the middle and self d. And do it in single player, i'm not there to watch you do it.

One thing that especially gets me PO'd is noobs when they get all scared and start surrounding their base with HLT's. One map of SSB the guy in the corner surrounded himself with DT's and persisted that his strat would work. It didn't.

Yeah, when they ignore me or an ally I see is really out there fighting, i'll nap the com. I'll just make sure they can't do the same back

[[TS]Lollocide]

Scratch has a good idea.

If I play to porc, as in 'Hold the ground as much as I can for as long as I can', I expect the noobs behind me to have a late game strat, so that I don't end up 25+35 minutes in holding off t2 with some hlt's.

If I think a team needs time to econ, I'll hold the enemy up for as long as I can, but allies who ignore that window and try to TECH2KROG are going to get, at the least, captured or dgunned.

I have very little patience for those who ignore the ENTIRE BATTLE so that they can focus on their M/E ratio.

[Raxxman]

I think people sometimes don't realize when they need to switch from Ecowhoring, to helping out the guy at the front who has two people hammering his line. It's an experience thing.

However I've had the reverse where I'll be ecowhoring and the guy in front will fold before I can even get a t2 lab up...

Timing is a lot of being a good RTS player.

[Teutooni]

Having an aggressive noob is better alot I find than having a defensive pro.

The problem with TA based games is that attacking is very hard. If the attack fails - and it often does, since new players are not familiar with unit strengths - the enemy gets the metal. A poorly executed attack not only hurts you, but also helps the enemy. Talk about slippery slopes...

Anyway, the reclaim is an awesome gameplay feature, and I wouldn't take it off just to make the game easier.

[[TS]Lollocide]

[quote="Raxxman"]I think people sometimes don't realize when they need to switch from Ecowhoring, to helping out the guy at the front who has two people hammering his line. It's an experience thing.

However I've had the reverse where I'll be ecowhoring and the guy in front will fold before I can even get a t2 lab up...

Timing is a lot of being a good RTS player.[/quote]

Personally, I think that a player who thinks they're going to die should say HALP PLZ!!! as soon as they think they'll need it (As in, he only built LLT's and now he's getting spaem flashed.), not call HALP! as their defensive line is being overwhelmed. But in defense, if you've order-stacked a bunch of things to be constructed, you should be evaluating the battlefield so you can reinforce weaker players.

That said, I hate nooby players, as long as everyone has a basic level awareness of what is happening on the battlefield, they should be able to atleast adapt to what is happening. Even if you lose the battle, nothing is worse than the guy in the back who hasn't even scrolled to the front line once and is building up his 'omfg, KORG' because he thinks a 45 minute unit is TEH AWESOME.

[SamannaGene-ocide]

i always leave my commander in the heart of their base, just ready to blow up something big :D
or (mostly in the case of BA) i get about 50 commandoes and cap his comm, then i got two insurances

[CarRepairer]

I'd like to call all of you people who disagree with me jerks, but I will attempt to restate my argument in a manner that should really be already obvious:

If you think you're high and mighty enough to decide when it's okay to attack/commnap/capture your allies, then you've set a precedent that it's okay for anyone to decide to do the same, even to you. Even if you're a pro and they are not. Who are you to say that the porcer in the back was wrong to take your stuff and commnap you? After all, you stated that if you think it will help win a game, you would do it. They are doing it on the same basis. Logic fail.

[Beherith]

I'd like to call all of you people who disagree with me jerks, but I will attempt to restate my argument in a manner that should really be already obvious:

If you think you're high and mighty enough to decide when it's okay to attack/commnap/capture your allies, then you've set a precedent that it's okay for anyone to decide to do the same, even to you. Even if you're a pro and they are not. Who are you to say that the porcer in the back was wrong to take your stuff and commnap you? After all, you stated that if you think it will help win a game, you would do it. They are doing it on the same basis. Logic fail.

I rarely, if ever use an ally comm to commbomb, but I think its fine as long as you convince the owner that it will do more good than harm. I will not nap any ally without telling him exactly why and making sure he understood and agreed with my intentions.

That said, on DSD, Im a top fan, I will only do front if theres at least one other dude there with me who I can count on to spam hard with me. Also, most teams stick their nubs on top, which makes it easy to kill them off while center is being porced.

[Scratch]

I'd like to call all of you people who disagree with me jerks, but I will attempt to restate my argument in a manner that should really be already obvious:

If you think you're high and mighty enough to decide when it's okay to attack/commnap/capture your allies, then you've set a precedent that it's okay for anyone to decide to do the same, even to you. Even if you're a pro and they are not. Who are you to say that the porcer in the back was wrong to take your stuff and commnap you? After all, you stated that if you think it will help win a game, you would do it. They are doing it on the same basis. Logic fail.

Man your point is WAY too general, I strongly believe in being an ass if you have to.

IDK what wins the game if they player shows an ATTITUDE that is contributory to the game I pretty much ignore him. However I was building a mex on some spots on DSD the other day and the noob dgunned me, while I was on front and he was on rear and the spot had been clearly marked by me.

Since he was only building construction vehs I napped his come ate it and destroyed his veh lab reclaiming it and well, that was it.

OFC he vote kicks me IDC, I hate notified him several times via chat that those were my spots and he shouldn't have dgunned. All he did is tell me what a noob I am.

I never argue against being a noob I'm not the best but that kind of attitude earned him what he got. I don't regret it.

[CarRepairer]

I'd like to call all of you people who disagree with me jerks, but I will attempt to restate my argument in a manner that should really be already obvious:

If you think you're high and mighty enough to decide when it's okay to attack/commnap/capture your allies, then you've set a precedent that it's okay for anyone to decide to do the same, even to you. Even if you're a pro and they are not. Who are you to say that the porcer in the back was wrong to take your stuff and commnap you? After all, you stated that if you think it will help win a game, you would do it. They are doing it on the same basis. Logic fail.

Man your point is WAY too general, I strongly believe in being an ass if you have to.

IDK what wins the game if they player shows an ATTITUDE that is contributory to the game I pretty much ignore him. However I was building a mex on some spots on DSD the other day and the noob dgunned me, while I was on front and he was on rear and the spot had been clearly marked by me.

Since he was only building construction vehs I napped his come ate it and destroyed his veh lab reclaiming it and well, that was it.

OFC he vote kicks me IDC, I hate notified him several times via chat that those were my spots and he shouldn't have dgunned. All he did is tell me what a noob I am.

I never argue against being a noob I'm not the best but that kind of attitude earned him what he got. I don't regret it.

Um, in that situation the other guy already crossed the line (in fact, he dgunned it). At that point I don't give a crap who does what to whom. He dgunned you. You can burn down his house for all I care. HE'S the one who ruined the game. It sickens me that people do that crap around here.

[Regret]

I'd like to call all of you people who disagree with me jerks

I lolled.

[El Capitano]

Hi. I was in that game that caused CarRepairer to get sand in uncomfortable places, so please allow me to shed some light on exactly why Acidd reclaimed his geotherm.

We were playing on...err...that map with desert in the middle surrounded by raised land and a river running top-right to bottom left acting as a divider. Sorry, I'm terrible with names. We were playing CA, so the higher the land is, the better wind generators are. CarRepairer took the top-right of the map, the highest point and the area where the typical eco-whore/air player goes, as it's buffered by the river and your allies to all sides. During the game, he proceeded to take our bottom-left geotherm (yes, on the other side of the map). When our central players (me, Biscuit_Mage and Bringer) got hammered and our lines started to crumble, Acidd wanted to replace the geotherm with a Behemoth. He spammed points and chat (just like CarRepairer complains people don't do) and eventually, realising that we were fucked unless we get that Behemoth up, reclaimed the Geotherm and started putting the Behemoth up.

CarRepairer threw a hissy fit of epic proportions and started going on about "his" eco stuff despite the spot pretty much belonging to pretty much any of the other players on his team by any reasonable resource share scheme. He basically sent over con-planes and started reclaiming the Behemoth before it was built, stalling any progress on it. Our central line collapsed, we Ctrl-A Ctrl-D because we were basically the only players left by this point on the team other than CarRepairer.

I make no apologies for our actions, I believe Acidd was doing the right thing the whole time. CarRepairer was by far the most useless player on our team (I have the replay and you're welcome to it if you want proof) and was shafting the whole team. So, you have CarRepairers fun vs. the fun of the other 5 guys on the team. We made a judgement call. Sometimes they have to be made and in a team game you have to learn to make sacrifices or find players who will sign some sort of silly "code of conduct" contract. Alternatively, play solo where you are only shafting yourself.

Trying to codify all sorts of esoteric rules into the game via code is foolish. If there's code to prevent d-gunning your ally's units, I could simply surround the "friendly" comm with friendly units in order to prevent him d-gunning that last flash that will kill him.

P.S. I wouldn't have made this personal if CR wasn't using that game as justification for trying to turn Spring into Carebear Rainbowland.

[Torrasque]

If you think you're high and mighty enough to decide when it's okay to attack/commnap/capture your allies, then you've set a precedent that it's okay for anyone to decide to do the same, even to you. Even if you're a pro and they are not. Who are you to say that the porcer in the back was wrong to take your stuff and commnap you? After all, you stated that if you think it will help win a game, you would do it. They are doing it on the same basis. Logic fail.

Logic do not fail, because I agree that they do the same on me.
The difference is that they will not do it. Why ?
Because if I die, they know that they will not last more than 5 min.
Without people like me, who like fighting with passion, they know that they will not last long.
Fighting players are being used for their own fun.. and that's why I rarely play spring now.
( I must admin that I would never had the idea to send the my allie's commander to death without his permission :) )

[CarRepairer]

Logic do not fail, because I agree that they do the same on me.
The difference is that they will not do it. Why ?
Because if I die, they know that they will not last more than 5 min.
Without people like me, who like fighting with passion, they know that they will not last long.
Fighting players are being used for their own fun.. and that's why I rarely play spring now.
( I must admin that I would never had the idea to send the my allie's commander to death without his permission :) )

It is obvious that you rarely play spring if you have the notion that other players will avoid doing the same to you to save the game. See all the drama here so far and you'll understand that most people around here don't care about having fun, they don't care about winning or losing, all they care about is themselves.

I make no apologies for our actions, I believe Acidd was doing the right thing the whole time

Have that attitude with everyone you play and see how many spring newcomers actually stay here. You can be so high and mighty about winning games that you'll be the only one left. It's a GAME and people come here to play a game, not have you forcefully take over the game from their hands just so you can win a stupid match. It's not about Carebear Rainbowland as you put it, it's about letting people actually play the game and not stopping them from playing. You might as well go all the way and kick anyone out of the battle who isn't up to your standards in the middle of the game.

[KDR_11k]

Newbies should not play team games!

[Pxtl]

Newbies should not play team games!

1v1s are too vicious and will scare them off, and FFA teaches bad porcing habits.

Co-op comp-stomping would be a good way to learn, but n00bs don't know which bot to use.

Best way to learn would be to play a 1(team) vs 1(team) shared-comm game with a mentor, but nobody does that... unless anybody wants to set up an apprenticeship program?

[El Capitano]

Have that attitude with everyone you play and see how many spring newcomers actually stay here.

You mean like the 2 me and Acidd have brought in lately?

You can be so high and mighty about winning games that you'll be the only one left.

Bullshit. We did everything you asked of us, we spammed chat and made labels asking for the damn geo and you ignored us in favour of eco whoring and getting your stuff killed. We made a judgement call to give the rest of our team a fighting chance, at least 3 of which were very new to CA.

It's a GAME and people come here to play a game, not have you forcefully take over the game from their hands just so you can win a stupid match.

Says the guy who was stealing his ally's resources. If your stupid rules get put into place, you'll see people spamming mexes in team games and there's nothing their allies will be able to do to stop them being the dominant player. You're just trading one problem for another.

It's not about Carebear Rainbowland as you put it,

Yes it is. You seem to think that if you code in enough rules you'll achieve tranquility, which is not what will happen at all. Here's a hint: in any team game you will have some level of internal conflict because there's more than one brain at work. You're basically trying to take the power to rectify an asshole teammate out of the players' hands, leaving them with the option of ragequit and spamming insults or not playing at all.

it's about letting people actually play the game and not stopping them from playing. You might as well go all the way and kick anyone out of the battle who isn't up to your standards in the middle of the game.

It wasn't a matter of who was and wasn't up to standard. We needed that Behemoth. We didn't begrudge you that geotherm to start with but took it back when we needed it and you were ignoring everybody's requests. The fact that you were utter shit just made the decision to take the spot easier. So stop saying you're a selfless player, man up and realise that team games will inherently have points of conflict.