The situation is as follows.
I sent a few scout aircraft over an enemy base. Some buildings were revealed and remained visisble (transparent) on the map after the scouts were shot down by AA fire.
I thought that when the revealed buildings should enable other units, for example bombers, to know where those buildings are so that they bomb them. So what I did was select 15 Phoenix bombers and give them an area attack order. I dragged the green area circle over the enemy base.
What happened was that most of the bombers didn't drop any bombs in their "first run". Only 3 of them did so, and they were the last planes to approach the base, i.e. they were in the rear of the formation. The rest who didn't drop any bombs during the appraoch only fired their stupid lasers, and didn't get a chance for a second run, because they were all shot down by the AA. I think that if all of them did drop their bombs on buildings on the initial attack run on the enemy base that they could have won.
So my questions are:
Why was the area attack order executed so poorly by my bombers?
How can I use bomber aircraft effectively?
And even if I didn't send a scout aircraft to figure out the locations of the enemy buildings, shouldn't the bombers be able to see what's happening in front of them and be able to pick a target for their bombs immediatly?
"area attack" option isn't working well for bomber
Moderator: Moderators
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F for Fragging
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- Joined: 07 May 2005, 17:33
The problem is that the bombers have an imperfect position for the buildings just like radar dots wander around. So when they get close and the buildings comes in los it will suddenly correct the position. Problem is that they are on the wrong course for the bombing run and doesnt have time to correct it in time. So they turn around for a second run.
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[K.B.] Napalm Cobra
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Warlord Zsinj
- Imperial Winter Developer
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CaptainExo
- Posts: 57
- Joined: 01 May 2005, 03:18
This could probably work, and look pretty neat. It'd make a nice option, instead of "Attack Area (Units)" set to "Attack Area (Ground)" so they randomly release bombs over the target area. More effective against unit clusters, as instead of 7 bombs bombing one peewee into vapour, the whole lot will bombard the area, spreading the damage and weakening the cluster.[K.B.] Napalm Cobra wrote:Could we have it, atleast as an option, so that area attacks such as bombers don't pick targets but simply pound the area at random points?
yeah I think the attack area ground idea is good
cause it makes since that bombers wouldnt attack on first run
cause ur just makin the game more and more permanent los that way
the Fog or war is cool I like the idea but bombers shoudlnt be able to attack on first run
send a scout across
if it cant make it then do force attack beside the building
or near it
or maybe if u force attack the building itself it will hit on the first run
cause it makes since that bombers wouldnt attack on first run
cause ur just makin the game more and more permanent los that way
the Fog or war is cool I like the idea but bombers shoudlnt be able to attack on first run
send a scout across
if it cant make it then do force attack beside the building
or near it
or maybe if u force attack the building itself it will hit on the first run
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F for Fragging
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SJ wrote:The problem is that the bombers have an imperfect position for the buildings just like radar dots wander around. So when they get close and the buildings comes in los it will suddenly correct the position. Problem is that they are on the wrong course for the bombing run and doesnt have time to correct it in time. So they turn around for a second run.
Thanks for the quick reply and good explanation. Do the devlopers plan on fixing this problem, i.e. making bombers more useful by means of enhancing the Line Of Sight for bombers? Or alternatively that the info the scout aircraft gathered get "passed on" to the bombers mind's?Warlord Zsinj wrote:The solution is to either give bombers better LOS, or for them to cluster bomb more than line bomb...
IMO I think that it's a bit ridiculous that bombers are pracitcally blind. I've gone on vacation for several times with a passenger aircraft and your certainly able to see for at least 50 kilometers of landscape when you're high in the sky.
[K.B.] Napalm Cobra wrote:Could we have it, atleast as an option, so that area attacks such as bombers don't pick targets but simply pound the area at random points?
A carpet bombing option would be better than what we have now, but it's still not a real solution.CaptainExo wrote:This could probably work, and look pretty neat. It'd make a nice option, instead of "Attack Area (Units)" set to "Attack Area (Ground)" so they randomly release bombs over the target area. More effective against unit clusters, as instead of 7 bombs bombing one peewee into vapour, the whole lot will bombard the area, spreading the damage and weakening the cluster.
The force attack on a building or directly attacking a building will guarantee that the bombers will hit on the first run, but it's useless. All the bombers will attack that building then, even if just 1 bomber is enough to destroy it. Result is that only one building is destroyed, and the bombers are shot down. Bombers are useless then.WeaZ wrote:yeah I think the attack area ground idea is good
cause it makes since that bombers wouldnt attack on first run
cause ur just makin the game more and more permanent los that way
the Fog or war is cool I like the idea but bombers shoudlnt be able to attack on first run
send a scout across
if it cant make it then do force attack beside the building
or near it
or maybe if u force attack the building itself it will hit on the first run
The ideal situation would be that bombers can execute an area attack order effectively, that they each choose different targets and that they don't all bomb one building, and that they are so smart to bomb the AA first. If my bombers would have done that they could have easily destroyed the AA, my enemy had mostly built some pulverizers which can be destroyed by one bomber in one bombing run. After they would have destroyed the AA they wouldn't be threatened anymore and they could have destroyed the enemies base easily.
Hiya Min3mat, nice to see you on the forum :). I use that tactic as well, I order some fighter planes to patrol the border of the enemy base, works quite good.Min3mat wrote:personally i use a screen of fighters to spot for the bombers coz they r faster!its like they did in real life too!
soz!-
sp2danny72
- Posts: 60
- Joined: 09 Jan 2005, 04:52
suggestion
Suggestion:
Once there has been Visual Contact with a non-movable unit
(ie building) the Estimated Position should be 100% correct
theirafter... Including radardots not wandering around.
Just my ├óÔÇÜ┬¼0.02
Once there has been Visual Contact with a non-movable unit
(ie building) the Estimated Position should be 100% correct
theirafter... Including radardots not wandering around.
Just my ├óÔÇÜ┬¼0.02
Ugh, please, micromanagement isn't the spawn of satan himself you know. With all these "improvements" and suggested "improvements" lately, we're continually heading down the path of watching two AIs fight for us... seriously, if the bombers are doing all the work, what's the point of playing? If you can just tell bombers to "go over there" and do all the work, what's the point of playing? It's taking the "R", "T", and especially "S" in "RTS". What are you going with the free time you gain from not having to pay attention to your units? Touch yourself at the thought of the computer playing the game for you? It takes skill, strategy, and scouting to bomb effectively. YOU are the commander, YOU are the one making the decisions, NOT the computer. YOU need to be able to scout effectively to know where their defenses are, so YOU can tell the bombers to hit them first, or to go around them, or whatever. YOU need to decide which building's demise would benefit YOU the most, NOT the computer.
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smokingwreckage
- Posts: 327
- Joined: 09 Apr 2005, 11:40
As much as I am not a big fan of having to micro everything, I think the question "why don't my bombers remember the exact location and target priority of every building and take out all AA in one perfect swoop without any intervention from me" kind of answers itself.
Hopefully there will be a "no fo of war option" and then these questions won't be releveant.
Hopefully there will be a "no fo of war option" and then these questions won't be releveant.
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F for Fragging
- Posts: 24
- Joined: 07 May 2005, 17:33
Ok, you guys have a point, but as far as I know it isn't possible to give such detailed attack orders. Or am I missing something? If so, please tell me.
As far as I know the only options for me when I let some bombers attack an enemy base are:
1. Attack a single building/area on the ground. This is not effective as all the bombers concentrate on one target.
2. Queue attack orders with the SHIFT key. This way I can order my bombers to attack multiple targets, but they will all concentrate on the first target again, then they will all attack the second, etc.
3. Area attack, which doesn't work very well either.
4. Try creating groups. This way I can distribute targets among the bombers. Unfortunately units carry out attack orders immediatly, so I can't let them all attack at once (first I order group 1 to attack, then group 2, group 1 goes ahead of group 2, group 1 doesn't wait for group 2 so they won't all attack together) Also, I don't have enough keys to make more than 10 groups.
If there would be a "mode" like this, bombers could be useful:
When I select a group of 20 bombers, I can issue an order called "delayed attack". When I press the button for that order in the interface, my cursor changes in the attack cursor, which enables me to tell the first bomber what target it should attack. When I give it an attack order, the bomber remembers the order but doesn't attack yet until I tell it to. After I've given the attack order to the first bomber, the cursor stays on the "attack cursor" so that I can give an attack order to the second bomber immediatly. This goes on on until I've ordered the twentieth bomber. Then I press the button again, and all the bombers will start their attacks.
As far as I know the only options for me when I let some bombers attack an enemy base are:
1. Attack a single building/area on the ground. This is not effective as all the bombers concentrate on one target.
2. Queue attack orders with the SHIFT key. This way I can order my bombers to attack multiple targets, but they will all concentrate on the first target again, then they will all attack the second, etc.
3. Area attack, which doesn't work very well either.
4. Try creating groups. This way I can distribute targets among the bombers. Unfortunately units carry out attack orders immediatly, so I can't let them all attack at once (first I order group 1 to attack, then group 2, group 1 goes ahead of group 2, group 1 doesn't wait for group 2 so they won't all attack together) Also, I don't have enough keys to make more than 10 groups.
If there would be a "mode" like this, bombers could be useful:
When I select a group of 20 bombers, I can issue an order called "delayed attack". When I press the button for that order in the interface, my cursor changes in the attack cursor, which enables me to tell the first bomber what target it should attack. When I give it an attack order, the bomber remembers the order but doesn't attack yet until I tell it to. After I've given the attack order to the first bomber, the cursor stays on the "attack cursor" so that I can give an attack order to the second bomber immediatly. This goes on on until I've ordered the twentieth bomber. Then I press the button again, and all the bombers will start their attacks.
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Warlord Zsinj
- Imperial Winter Developer
- Posts: 3742
- Joined: 24 Aug 2004, 08:59
While I agree, Gnome, that you don't want to go too far and remove the complexity from the game, I don't particularly think this crosses the line.
I'd love to see my bombers be able to choose seperate targets as they fly over (evaluating targets is a different story... I might want to flatten some defenses before my troops roll in, not hit the AA).
Right now, however, the most logical solution for an area attack is for bombers to just randomly release their bombs over an area. The coolest way to do this, of course, is for bombers to fly in a "V" formation based on the diameter of the targeted area (where the diamater = width of the opening of the V), and then the bombers simply drop their bombs in the direction they are following, meaning that the surface area of the 'Target Area' order is bombed out.
I'd love to see my bombers be able to choose seperate targets as they fly over (evaluating targets is a different story... I might want to flatten some defenses before my troops roll in, not hit the AA).
Right now, however, the most logical solution for an area attack is for bombers to just randomly release their bombs over an area. The coolest way to do this, of course, is for bombers to fly in a "V" formation based on the diameter of the targeted area (where the diamater = width of the opening of the V), and then the bombers simply drop their bombs in the direction they are following, meaning that the surface area of the 'Target Area' order is bombed out.
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[K.B.] Napalm Cobra
- Posts: 1222
- Joined: 16 Aug 2004, 06:15
