New Spring site design, I need your feedback.

[MelTraX]

I 7zipped a checkout of the site (revision 4209) so you can just download and modify it..

You will still need a PHP server though and it must be capable to connect to my MySQL server..

http://tinyurl.com/23z3p3 (4,8 MiB - 40KiB/s max download)

Anyone who knows how to use SVN can send make a patch out of it if you send him/her an archive with the changed files.. PM me in the Lobby if I should be that one ..

[Tim Blokdijk]

@MelTraX
Nice.

@BoredJoe
I agree that right at this moment I more or less have the final say but that's because I'm still also more or less the only active site developer. I do hope to get to a point where I can be side-lined by others if I'm making choices that are not realistic.

Look here for the site code in svn https://spring.clan-sy.com/svn/spring/trunk/Site/ but download the package MelTraX made if you like to have all files in one without using a svn client.

You can do the two steps like you suggest but step two will involve people talking about all the stuff that gets done in the more detailed development process. So the only thing different is that you first make a replacement only to have to discuss things later. And that discussion is not structured so you have no guaranty that you would actually end up with any of your work being used. How would you feel if you spend several days working on some replacement only to have the topic derail when you need the constructive criticism?

"My" process has a few more steps but it's almost guaranteed that if completed your work is actually used.

As for the site layout, I suggest you get hacking and make us a better one. You are free to pick your two step process and risk your work not being used. Or pick my process and get an almost assured use of it.

[BoredJoe]

"My" process has a few more steps but it's almost guaranteed that if completed your work is actually used.

Thats the problem. The barrier to entry is so high that anyone who wants to contribute has to jump through so many hoops to get his work accepted.

If my work isn't used, it should be on the grounds it isn't as good, not "You havn't discussed this before changing it, so we're not going to implement it."

Imo, aGorms design is the best I've seen so far. Its simple and well designed . If it isn't used, its proof your process shouldn't be used.

[Tobi]

If my work isn't used, it should be on the grounds it isn't as good, not "You havn't discussed this before changing it, so we're not going to implement it."

You turn it around. What Tim said was: if you do follow the process, you can be almost sure your contribution will be accepted.
(and not: if you do not follow the process, you can be sure your contribution will not be accepted)

IOW, if you follow the process it's the responsibility of the community to give as much critique as needed to get the quality high enough for inclusion.
If you don't follow the process it means there hasn't been any discussion yet so there is a bigger chance the outcome of the discussion is that it should not (yet) be included in the site.

Also TBH the real amount of steps is being exaggerated by AF and oversimplified by BoredJoe.

For example:

1) Say its bad
2) Say why its bad

This is a one liner in a post, and often it even is implied by the fact that you suggest a replacement. (You wouldn't suggest a replacement after all if it's good enough already...)

3) Suggest a replacement

This is a prototyping stage, it already happens for almost all contributions here, whether you want it or not. It is the post starting a new thread "I made this new logo, should it be on the site?".

4) Say how theyre going to replace it

For many (most?) stuff this is entirely obvious.
I want to replace the banner
How?
By making a new one in my favorite image editor
Duh, you don't even need to say that unless you are proposing architectural/technical changes for which it isn't immediately obvious (ie. there are multiple answers to the how? question).

5) Seek approval and wait
6) Finally implement it and provide the diff

This already happens too. After the prototype people give comments and someone with SVN access says "looks nice, if you change this and tweak that it's good for inclusion".

Diff's don't make sense for images either, just upload them somewhere and paste the link your post (again, everyone does this already).

7) wait for it to be reviewed
8 ) wait for it to go on the site.

This is kinda obvious, we can't give everyone access to the live site so they can replace everything at the instant they finish it.

As for the reviewing, that already happened with the discussion and the seek approval and wait phases.

As for the SVN, Meltrax already proved there are always people willing to give the source as a single archive file so this isn't a problem either.

OTOH, while the steps given by BoredJoe may describe the process pretty well for images, formatting etc., that process is written down too simplistic for architectural/technical changes, for which there will always be some discussion beforehand (unless you want to risk developing something that is totally not wanted).

IOW,

The dev. process is just describing something that is already being done only more structured.

[Tim Blokdijk]

Tobi got to it before me but here is my reply BoredJoe.

As to the other remarks, "good enough to be used" is something that is depending on a lot of factors. For example, you can write the best code in the world and make a new feature for the site BUT nobody needs the new feature. You would have wasted your time, having a little discussion beforehand would have allowed you to code a feature that is actually needed. Now this is just an example but support from key people, good documentation, collaboration on parts where code overlaps other developers work, quality checks in the dev. env. and more things like that are all just as much part of the "good enough to be used" criteria. The development process makes sure all those things get done at the correct time. And sure it's more work then dumping a zip file with changes in the lap of another developer. But it's good to make and keep people responsible for all aspects of development. If you don't like that then you can do your two step process but no guaranty that anybody is going to pick up on it.

But don't despair, I can add the two step process.. it might have it's place it's just not something I like to use among dedicated developers. For people that are not involved and just like to "code something" it can be a good way to get involved.

As for the last remark, I like aGorms design to but you are comparing a site with a picture.

[AF]

IOW? I dont know that abbrieviation.

Tobi:

I want to replace the banner
How?
By making a new one in my favorite image editor

I actualyl meant in the 'How' to describe how the banner was to be created, the method used to create the artwork, such as painting it then scanning it in and using the blur tool on some striking paintstrokes, or running filters over a hand drawn picture or plonking a spring logo ontop of 5 layers each holding a texture at a certain alpha layer.

Basically following the scientific experiment planning section usually labeled "Method" in most schoolbooks. What you've done is:

I want to experiment on cheese to figure out if it will melt
How?
By experimenting on cheese to figure out if it will melt

I agree with boredjoe. If artwork is rejected, then its updated and resubmitted for further criticism. The only difference is that with tims process this incremental fast criticism redo pattern has to go through a longwinded initial stage involving setting out your intentions, explaining how it will be done and why, then getting general support for doing it, then proceeding to the incremental stage.

But to be honest, if I see a better banner Ill use it, Im not bothered about how or why it was made, add the name to the credits, say thankyou and be done with it, otherwise criticize the artwork, suggest improvements and move on. This method speeds up creative artwork processes enourmously over tims process, which is more suited to development of the underlying php code.

[SwiftSpear]

IOW? I dont know that abbrieviation.

In other words.

[Tobi]

True, that how example was a bit oversimplified. The point remains however, that for images a very short description should be more then enough. No one really cares about the how? as long as the end result is nice.

This is contrary to the how? for architectural or technical changes, then you may want to point out how you plan to migrate data for example. Not that many people here really care about that, but writing it down will force at least you to think a few minutes about it so you don't get stuck on it halfway through the implementation.

In my opinion this process of thinking about what you actually want to do and how you are going to do it is most imporant for yourself, so you can estimate whether you will be able to handle it and possibly in how much time, if you mind.

[aGorm]

OK, look, thing is, that picture took me 5 minuets. I COULD knock that up into HTML, and just leave all the PHP out (because I dont know much PHP, work uses scummy Microsoft) For someone thats actully intrested in coding in teh back end to just dump there code into.
From experiance, thats always the best way.

You should come up with how it will work (done, it shoudl work like Tim Blokdijks site)
The someone should take that and design what it should look like, and put it into html.
Then stuff all the PHP in to generate the actull content.

Trying to re-purpose a site thats already in existance just seems like making it alot of hard work.

Probablie rambaling a bit here, but hay.
Also while im here, Im away all next week, so I prob wont reply after today.

aGorm

[Tim Blokdijk]

@aGorm
I'm not promising to do the php work but if you do the html work things are going to be a lot closer to being integrated in the site.

--

This discussion about the dev process inspired me to update the General Spring Site Documentation with two brand new processes, the "Patch" and "Via proxy" processes.
I would suggest to actually read them but for the lazy that like to know the general idea:

Patch process is for the people that just drop a patch out of the blue and how to deal with that in a effective way.
Via proxy is another variant where you would have a dev that is involved in the general development process (the proxy) and he/she would work with someone (a side-developer) that is not involved with the planning process.

So an example would be that Argh decides to make a new grapical layout for the site, he makes a plan and follows the development process. We agree and support his idea's.
Now half way trough some people pop up that are not familiar with any plan to update any graphics but do like to help Argh out with some things. At that point they can follow the via proxy process to have them do some work on for example a background gradient. And still have a reasonable chance things will end up being used.

[Roflcopter]

http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/882/ ... 333qz7.jpg
Remove the space after http: to view it. I can't post images because of the SPAM filter. modfixt

I felt inspired and thats the result. :O
It's done on PS and I may do it in HTML.
Used a more uniform color scheme and a background to fit it, the main banner doen't have many fancy stuff to not get annoying, though some cool images can be added as a background keeping the blue tones. I wanted it to be more formal.
Don't try to kill me if you don't like it.

[smoth]

THAT LOOKS over 9000 TIMES BETTER!

[MelTraX]

agreed

[cong06]

-fixed width
-better background (I guess I'm finally seeing why you guys hated the background thing so much)
-good boarders
-perfect header (simple, but maybe not for a specific mod)
-and looks like it could be used for different mods... I mean, I could see the "skin" changing a lot smoother then the original...

the one thing that sounds out that's a bit weird (maybe just cause it's weird, and I'll get over it) is the lowercase 'I' in the middle of Spring...on the logo..with everything else caps.

maybe it's just a peeve of mine...looks ugly, imo.

edit: um. only the "SPRiNG" looks ugly. everything else is great. (comparing newspring.clan-sy.com and the picture)

[AF]

We could replace the logo with the official one for now.

Im also toying with overhauling the layout of the frontpage itself to something completely different with an emphasis on Simply saying that spring is 2 download links, quicklinks, and then 1 news item with a list underneath

[SwiftSpear]

http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/882/ ... 333qz7.jpg
Remove the space after http: to view it. I can't post images because of the SPAM filter. modfixt

I felt inspired and thats the result. :O
It's done on PS and I may do it in HTML.
Used a more uniform color scheme and a background to fit it, the main banner doen't have many fancy stuff to not get annoying, though some cool images can be added as a background keeping the blue tones. I wanted it to be more formal.
Don't try to kill me if you don't like it.

YES YES YES YES YES YES YES!

IT'S OVER 9000 TIMES BETTER!

[Dragon45]

roflcopter just ended the discussion.

gg.

[hunterw]

http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/882/ ... 333qz7.jpg
Remove the space after http: to view it. I can't post images because of the SPAM filter. modfixt

BALLIN

[malric]

http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/882/ ... 333qz7.jpg

Great design!

[Tim Blokdijk]

http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/882/ ... 333qz7.jpg
...
Don't try to kill me if you don't like it.

Only if you leave it at that picture and don't work on integrating it in the site.

Anyway feedback:
- You would have to alter the graphics a bit to allow scaling, for me scaling to screen width is important. As in one of the main reasons to update the site.
- I plan on a highlight that is 10 - 15 words.
- I like community and project news horizontal as it would make them 'equal'.
- Top maps and mods could be fun but it would require coding on the lobby server.
- I don't like latest message board posts, I have seen flame wars in things like that and it gave me a very bad first impression of the project.
- And a very vague point, try to be bandwidth conservative as a heavy site would take Fnordia off-line each time we would have a spike in site visitors. As in don't go overboard with it. Try to be smart with it.
- Note that if you pick up on this you should talk a bit with aGorm.

Are you capable of integrating your work?