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 Post subject: Gameplay issues
PostPosted: 29 Aug 2009, 23:40 

Joined: 18 Aug 2007, 18:04
  1. Impulse is overpowered on some maps, it should be overriden just like wind etc
  2. Levelers, banishers, warriors, outlaws should damage themselves
  3. 't1' veh cons, and some other veh units rotate like boats, it adds nothing just makes you fight with the pathfinding
  4. Turrets on tanks rotate ridiculously slow
  5. Auto-skirmish / micro for raiders / auto mex dumbs the game down
  6. Bombers are bugged and cant be controlled after bombing.
  7. Aircraft repair is bugged (the autoland cant be overriden) and air is still set by default to land at 30%
  8. Antiswarm turret (scorcher/stardust) is overpowered and cost only 200m, it always kills several times more than it costs unless outranged which is rare, and its death explosion range/damage is ridiculously big
  9. Radars are still bugged and after they are build they turn on, then off and it takes several seconds for them to work again.
  10. Ticks don't emp themselves
  11. Storages have to be spammed, they should give a lot more storage and cost more, a single storage is useless
  12. Long range radar costs too much
  13. Communism discourages expanding and encourages porcing


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 Post subject: Re: Gameplay issues
PostPosted: 29 Aug 2009, 23:57 
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Joined: 19 May 2009, 20:10
Regret wrote:
    Ticks don't emp themselves

Image

Regret wrote:
    Communism discourages expanding and encourages porcing

Resources are shared. You have a disadvantage if you don't share your work. Communism promotes team work.


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 Post subject: Re: Gameplay issues
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2009, 00:23 

Joined: 18 Aug 2007, 18:04
SirMaverick wrote:
tick

I'm not aware that 1 tick blowing up will immobilize the other next to it as it does to the other units.


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 Post subject: Re: Gameplay issues
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2009, 00:26 
Cursed Zero-K Developer
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Joined: 07 Nov 2007, 21:48
Location: Horse
Quote:
't1' veh cons, and some other veh units rotate like boats, it adds nothing just makes you fight with the pathfinding

I agree, http://trac.caspring.org/ticket/1343
Quote:
Auto-skirmish / micro for raiders / auto mex dumbs the game down

Give it up.
Quote:
Radars are still bugged and after they are build they turn on, then off and it takes several seconds for them to work again.

Is there a ticket for this?
Quote:
Long range radar costs too much

I like that it costs a lot. in most games it reveals a whole map of coverage. It is like a big bertha of intelligence. It should cost this way appropriately.


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 Post subject: Re: Gameplay issues
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2009, 00:31 

Joined: 17 Sep 2008, 03:36
Location: your imagination
Sir Maverick wrote:
Regret wrote:
    Communism discourages expanding and encourages porcing

Resources are shared. You have a disadvantage if you don't share your work. Communism promotes team work.


With communism mode, expanding is still encouraged as a collective but for the newbies it just means that they can sit in their little corner while the pros struggle with diminished metal income.

Its a nice option but newbs really break it. As long as its not default though I don't see a problem.

Regret wrote:
Bombers are bugged and cant be controlled after bombing.
Aircraft repair is bugged (the autoland cant be overriden) and air is still set by default to land at 30%

Yes this has bugged me for ages too

Regret wrote:
SirMaverick wrote:
tick

I'm not aware that 1 tick blowing up will immobilize the other next to it as it does to the other units.

Yeah ticks can definately stun other ticks. Sometimes when I failspam ticks a whole bunch will get stunned when one dies. Although iirc emp units get a special defense bonus against other emp so it might be harder to stun a tick per hp then most other units.


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 Post subject: Re: Gameplay issues
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2009, 00:32 

Joined: 18 Aug 2007, 18:04
I forgot to mention, I'm not going to bother defending these statements vs your awesome arguments.


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 Post subject: Re: Gameplay issues
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2009, 03:07 

Joined: 17 Sep 2008, 03:36
Location: your imagination
CarRepairer wrote:
Quote:
Long range radar costs too much

I like that it costs a lot. in most games it reveals a whole map of coverage. It is like a big bertha of intelligence. It should cost this way appropriately.


tbh I have never found adv radar worth its cost except in ffa. The regular and advanced version of everything is (imho) a stupid ta-ism that has been mostly removed in CA.

I would recommend instead possibly a radar that has long inaccurate detection (like the standard one now except -maybe- a bit larger detection and without los) and one that is much shorter ranged but 100% accurate/gives los.

Or maybe just go to 1 radar system. Basically same deal as with cloaker/shield.


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 Post subject: Re: Gameplay issues
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2009, 05:10 
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Joined: 10 Apr 2006, 04:05
Location: Finland, 1944
Quote:
1. Impulse is overpowered on some maps, it should be overriden just like wind etc


If you need to override the map, don't play on it.

Quote:
2. Levelers, banishers, warriors, outlaws should damage themselves


Agreed.

Quote:
5. Auto-skirmish / micro for raiders / auto mex dumbs the game down


Agreed but it isn't going anywhere, the active developers support automation.

Quote:
6. Bombers are bugged and cant be controlled after bombing.


Fuel point, not a bug. I would prefer being able to control movement, though.

Quote:
7. Aircraft repair is bugged (the autoland cant be overriden) and air is still set by default to land at 30%


Not a bug though I would prefer being able to control movement, again. That default setting is pointless, I agree.

Quote:
8. Antiswarm turret (scorcher/stardust) is overpowered and cost only 200m, it always kills several times more than it costs unless outranged which is rare, and its death explosion range/damage is ridiculously big


Mixed agreement. Once I get better internet I can probably start messing with stuff like that when it gets annoying.

Quote:
11. Storages have to be spammed, they should give a lot more storage and cost more, a single storage is useless


Mixed agreement.

Quote:
13. Communism discourages expanding and encourages porcing


Only with unmotivated teams.


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 Post subject: Re: Gameplay issues
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2009, 09:22 
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Joined: 12 Oct 2007, 08:24
Quote:
Quote:
1. Impulse is overpowered on some maps, it should be overriden just like wind etc

If you need to override the map, don't play on it.
I really doubt that gravity values on most maps were set with balance in mind, they're more along the lines of "cool, floating shrapenel". Those maps weren't made for CA anyway. The widely varing gravity values make impulse based weapons impossible to balance so should definatly be overriden.

Quote:
2. Levelers, banishers, warriors, outlaws should damage themselves
This would lead to a micro frenzy when trying to use those units. We'd probably end up with a widget that stops attack orders for these units if they're going to damage themselves. We've already got this situtation with autoskirm, if we didn't have fast skirmy units then there would be no autoskirm.

Quote:
3. 't1' veh cons, and some other veh units rotate like boats, it adds nothing just makes you fight with the pathfinding
This is to make them different to bots, faster but less manuverability. Though I agree the turning on veh cons is really horrible.

Quote:
4. Turrets on tanks rotate ridiculously slow
I think the point is that they are flankable, on some tanks at least.

Quote:
5. Auto-skirmish / micro for raiders / auto mex dumbs the game down
If the game is micro click frenzy then yes.

Regret wrote:
6. Bombers are bugged and cant be controlled after bombing.
7. Aircraft repair is bugged (the autoland cant be overriden) and air is still set by default to land at 30%

Bomber ammo (afaik) was not implemented for a gameplay reason, it was added by Licho as an auto-toss microer. It has the massive disadvantage of making bombers uncontrollable which causes them to do incredibly stupid things. such as fly back through AA or toss in the wrong direction.

Quote:
8. Antiswarm turret (scorcher/stardust) is overpowered and cost only 200m, it always kills several times more than it costs unless outranged which is rare, and its death explosion range/damage is ridiculously big
Depends what they fight, if against raiders they will and should make cost easily.


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 Post subject: Re: Gameplay issues
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2009, 09:29 
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Joined: 22 Aug 2006, 15:19
having played a game recently (it's been a while) i got completely owned by a sniper and didn't have any idea how to make him go away. granted, i started with a wrong lab and couldn't get to the hills he was using, but still, snipers at 5 min mark are... wrong. i'm a nub at CA at such things don't really make me want to play it more...


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 Post subject: Re: Gameplay issues
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2009, 11:16 
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Joined: 19 May 2006, 18:13
Location: Brno, Czech rep., EU, Terra, Sol, Orion arm, Milky way, Virgo supercluster
Only way to deal with snipers is to scout them with small cheap units..
Fleas or jeffies work..

They haver very slow rof, so in effect their dps output is small..

Once decloaked they are guaranteed to die quickly.

If it was planetwars, its likely they were ally boosted. Normally, if you build sniper that early you got nothing else (no mex/base/energy to run them).

Unfortunatelly people voted against seismic detection saying its bad to see ping but not causing units to auto target them..

I strongly disagree with such dogmatism though..


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 Post subject: Re: Gameplay issues
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2009, 11:17 
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Advanced radar is awesome structure even in team games, i build it basicalyl every game. Also, it increases radar precision (less wobble).


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 Post subject: Re: Gameplay issues
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2009, 11:52 
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Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 10:24
Location: waiting in line for The Expendables 2
Regret wrote:
I forgot to mention, I'm not going to bother defending these statements vs your awesome arguments.


regret is my favorite


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 Post subject: Re: Gameplay issues
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2009, 12:54 
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Joined: 22 Aug 2006, 15:19
Licho wrote:
Unfortunatelly people voted against seismic detection saying its bad to see ping but not causing units to auto target them..

I strongly disagree with such dogmatism though..

this works well in s44, i don't see why it shouldn't in ca.

oh and yes it was planetwars.


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 Post subject: Re: Gameplay issues
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2009, 12:59 
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Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 11:43
Google_Frog wrote:
Quote:
2. Levelers, banishers, warriors, outlaws should damage themselves
This would lead to a micro frenzy when trying to use those units. We'd probably end up with a widget that stops attack orders for these units if they're going to damage themselves. We've already got this situtation with autoskirm, if we didn't have fast skirmy units then there would be no autoskirm.

Whats so wrong with micro then?? Automate it if you cant handle it, whatever, but dont dumb down the units just because of that...


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 Post subject: Re: Gameplay issues
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2009, 14:25 
Supreme Annihilation Maintainer
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Joined: 11 Jan 2008, 16:55
Im not sure you can definatley say that making them hurt themselves adds more tactical depth or more unit control and thus this issue becomes a matter of subjective preference.
It just changes balance.

IMO the main thing about ca is the Issue at start where you have a huge selection of starts(many labs that cost the same) while not enough time to scout and decide on a course of action,based on the enemies actions,making it very random and out of the control of the player.

I think the idea that was brought up by carrepairer about boost being unable to boost the construction of units but able to boost turrets and regular buildings is excellent.
Or add a Dgun to the commander(decreasing morph cost will not resolve the start problem unless its decreased so much that everyone just morph at start always-obviously a silly situation)
Dgun also adds some issues about commandeer vs commander fights.

Personally,and this is just my impression as a player,I think that bombers in CA are not as interesting cause of their limitation with fuel.
Of course when I said I think bombers similar to the OTA bombers which are more maneuverable are more fun i was laughed at so i might be very wrong about CA bombers.

I also felt that Constantly changing labs in CA is encouraged.
Iv seen players make 3-4 labs,thing is its optimal to constantly reclaim and build different labs instead of building several so if Players are allowed to slowly streamline gameplay you will eventually get to the point where players constantly reclaim and build different labs.
Reclaming labs and building new ones all the time IMO is not fun,at least not in the way it is currently done.
Personally id Like to see this change by either changing the unit composition of the different labs,changing certain lab costs(meaning going for tiers OTA stlye) or changing the entire reclaim and build mechanism and making lab shifting easier and more fun(maybe by allowing labs to morph to different lab?just one example).

About the units moving in circles...Im sure you know my opinion about it since i stated it many times before.

I don't think issues that are related only to unit balance are worth mentioning as that comes with time and patience unlike the grand design of the mechanics.

Visually i personnaly dislike the default cursor cause it is rounded and feels clumsy.
It also seems to me that some explosions and projectiles and their area of effect explosions are too big or just look too big (even if the explosion shows the precise range)which makes the game feel a bit clumsy and less precise(the area of effect might be similar to SA/BA but in those the explosion is not accurate and it seems it was an accidental positive bug.

Final thing is that i think CA needs to stop making balance changes at all and only deal with adding missing units to labs and finishing the grand design.
Balance changes need to be tested over months so changing something and than reverting after a week will not get you very far(sometimes units that seemed oped or underpowered will become balanced once the game is more or less streamlines (people find optimal solutions to many different situations).

These comment and observations are not intended to offend any of the CA devs.


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 Post subject: Re: Gameplay issues
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2009, 14:42 
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Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 11:43
Gota wrote:
Im not sure you can definatley say that making them hurt themselves adds more tactical depth or more unit control and thus this issue becomes a matter of subjective preference.
It just changes balance.

About balance, imo those units can be either way, it was just the reasoning that I was opposed to.


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 Post subject: Re: Gameplay issues
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2009, 14:46 
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Joined: 11 Jan 2008, 16:55
I just want to add that in general if you want to be accurate with the depiction of the are of effect of weapons you should consider reducing are of effect for most weapons since big are of effect weapons are not fun to play with or against since micro becomes very annoying(or maybe it just feels so when combined with units having to move to turn).


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 Post subject: Re: Gameplay issues
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2009, 14:56 
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Joined: 19 May 2006, 18:13
Location: Brno, Czech rep., EU, Terra, Sol, Orion arm, Milky way, Virgo supercluster
1) early scouting

Yes I agree this is an issue - too many options and not enough time to scout. This is especially apparent in planetwars where people often coop on same lab..

I agree we should try to prevent boost on units and only allow it on units..


2) lab reclaim

This is just a gameplay preference, i never reclaim lab, i keep both. Perhaps there is more general reclaim problem - reclaim gives you 100% metal back.

3) selfpwn and micro, slow turrets

We are creating a game where units are supposed to be intelligent autonomous war machines.
Why would they walk into a wall and fire bazooka to kill themselves? Its silly.. Since we cannot improve their intelligence in this respect, we blocked self damage.

There is imo plenty of room for micro in CA. Part of it are slow turrets and bullets of tanks (stuff regret complains about :), this gives you oportunity to micro raiders.

We want micro but we dont want stupid micro. Trying to prevent your units from suiciding is imo stupid.

4) bombers

This just waits until someone codes a fix.. thats all.. plain and simple.
I just want that bombers retain their 1 bomb per reload mechanism and that area bomber perform tossing attack (with no need to overflight enemy).


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 Post subject: Re: Gameplay issues
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2009, 14:57 
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oh and regarding that brawler changes - we got stats system in place that tracks all games, and this system indicates that brawler suddenly got much better..

I though its the height but today i discovered its small hitbox that came with the new model :(


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