Xta unit stats and balance tweaks (input for next version)

Xta unit stats and balance tweaks (input for next version)

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raaar
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Xta unit stats and balance tweaks (input for next version)

Post by raaar »

Howdy

What would you like to see changed on a new version of xta?

here's some stuff to feed the debate, some of it are "wild" ideas of mine:

- disable com dgunning com and living (imo it's one of the reasons players dislike this mod)

- construction kbots and vehicles :wait for a few seconds on ready state instead of closing immediately. This will change balance, cause they will be more efficient at helping factories build lev1 units and making lines of dragon's teeth.

- should vehicles really be stronger than kbots on flat areas, or should both factories have equally strong options (but with some differences on flavour and unique units). Many maps have big flat areas, making vehicles a better option from the start. Not much choice there.

- remove dedicated mine layers from the game, and give all construction units the ability to build mines and mine removers.

- increasing the range of most short-ranged, non-missile units. How would XTA play if non-missile units' ranges were increased 25%? or 50%?) This would imply changes to commanders and a lot of other units, though.

- What about increasing the los? What if the average unit had a sight radius of 600 instead of 400.

- the arm raven. this unit isn't that expensive and has massive firepower. It will miss its target, but if you get three of four, they can clear a big area with one volley. Imo the unit should be reworked.

- should tier2 units and structures be tweaked down to be more accessible but not as powerful when compared to tier1 units?
Last edited by raaar on 10 Apr 2010, 00:43, edited 1 time in total.
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Jools
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Re: What's wrong with XTA? (input for next version)

Post by Jools »

If you increase los, then scouting becomes even less important. Imo los should rather be decreased.

The advanced torpedo launcher is easily beaten by a kamikaze sub, I think it's torpedoes need to be more homing.

And I also think the commander's delay between dgun order and firing could be decreased a bit, to make him more powerful against spam.
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manolo_
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Re: What's wrong with XTA? (input for next version)

Post by manolo_ »

- disable com dgunning com and living (imo it's one of the reasons players dislike this mod)
yes and 100% +1 (if both are on the same tech-lvl)
- construction kbots and vehicles :wait for a few seconds on ready state instead of closing immediately. This will change balance, cause they will be more efficient at helping factories build lev1 units and making lines of dragon's teeth.
yeah, i like that idea, i had the same idea more than once
- should vehicles really be stronger than kbots on flat areas, or should both factories have equally strong options (but with some differences on flavour and unique units). Many maps have big flat areas, making vehicles a better option from the start. Not much choice there.
normally we say vehicles are better on flat ground and bots are better for the hills and i think that is nearly fullfilled in xta
- remove dedicated mine layers from the game, and give all construction units the ability to build mines and mine removers.
i dont liike this
- increasing the range of most short-ranged, non-missile units. How would XTA play if non-missile units' ranges were increased 25%? or 50%?) This would imply changes to commanders and a lot of other units, though.
why, do u wanna change that?
- What about increasing the los? What if the average unit had a sight radius of 600 instead of 400.
no (loke at jools post)
- the arm raven. this unit isn't that expensive and has massive firepower. It will miss its target, but if you get three of four, they can clear a big area with one volley. Imo the unit should be reworked.
why? this unit is really powerful and needs 900E per shot it a real pain in the ass for ur foe
- should tier2 units and structures be tweaked down to be more accessible but not as powerful when compared to tier1 units?
i like the balancing as is it now. maybe add some superb tier-3 units (more than krog)
babbles
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Re: What's wrong with XTA? (input for next version)

Post by babbles »

I'm too lazy to address your points in any kind of order but here it goes.

If we make T2 weaker against T2 we get BA, a transiiton from T1 spam to T2 spam, as T1 will be able to kill T2 easily and only great amounts of T2 will be useful as oppose to say 1 bulldog.

Increasing LoS of all units would make Commander very redudant and remove the point of scouting. Why scout when your units can see how as far as they can shoot?

Yeah I'm all for removing comm living "feature".

Making all units able to lay mines is ridiculous. Having a minelayer means you have to plan to make them as oppose to make them randomly. Also, you run a risk of the enemy seeing a minelayer when you make it, this would be removed with cons. Finally, it would remvoe the advantage vehicles get of having the minelayer. Also, "All constructors"? Lol? Commander and air cons making mines? Good fecking game.

Making missle units have less range would make them pretty useless against bombers as they'd get only one shot off, and be pretty bad against zippers. It would also make LLTs very powerful as nothing could outrange them. And making the other units have more range would make rockos far too powerful as well. Massive range ans massive damage? Really?

And raven is fine as far as I'm concerned. It costs a lot but is worth it, however is quite delicate and easy to kill making it a risk.

Oh, and a few changes, mostly not balanced related:
Core Typhoon ÔÇô Change description to ÔÇ£Torpedo GunshipÔÇØ
Arm Albatross ÔÇô Change description to ÔÇ£Torpedo GunshipÔÇØ
Suggestion ÔÇô Remove their ability to land in sea? Hardly used anyway.
Give Tech 2 constructors ability to make Sub pens
Mine build pictures need sorting out (swapping around to match model).
Remove ÔÇ£On/OffÔÇØ mode of Core Copperhead.
Change descriptions of Arm Protector and Core Fortitude to ÔÇ£Anti NukeÔÇØ?
Change descriptions of Arm Scarab and Core Hedgehog to ÔÇ£Mobile Anti NukeÔÇØ?
Make Vehicle and Kbot jammers equal radius? Seems unfair.
Possibly same with sea jammer? It is sea after all, bigger scale.
For morphing Arm and Core Commanders to advanced says ÔÇ£morph to a AdvancedÔÇØ change ÔÇ£aÔÇØ toÔÇØ anÔÇØ.
Arm Piranha and Core Shark (sub killers) are more like Advanced Subs or something.
Paralyser bar does not work ÔÇô gets to 100% and not paralysed
EMP overload does not completely paralyse Spiders.
F.A.R.K. description change to Fast Assist Resurrection Kbot.
raaar
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Re: What's wrong with XTA? (input for next version)

Post by raaar »

Increasing los doesn't make scouting less important, it makes scouting easier. There's also a problem with not being able to see clearly where the los of your units ends (at least for me)

Why should the commander be the only unit able to spot for artillery?

About the increasing unit ranges thing (except missile units), two ways have been used to prevent missile units from dominating the game by using their distance advantage:
- make missile units less cost-effective
- make missile units shoot air only

...but there is another way:
- increase the range of the other units. Compared to ota, it seems mods significantly increased the movement speed of many units, and the range of some, including some of the missile units. Why not take this further? Units can't shoot through friendly buildings, so raiding would still be effective.

On xta the ranges of towers and level 2 units were increased considerably, why not have peewees with 320 range and thuds with 600? Because of the way the commander plays? Why not give commanders a 120 dps 400 range weapon (more power and longer range when upgraded), and make the dgun a backup? I think doing this to xta would imply a major rebalance of the game though.

To summarise, i think modders have been too conservative when tampering with the commanders and the level 1 units.

Maybe it's a bad idea. After all...almost all rts games i've seen use short range, half-blind units (relative to their size).

I won't harass you much about doing it to xta. Just throwing this around to see what u guys have to say :)
babbles
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Re: What's wrong with XTA? (input for next version)

Post by babbles »

raaar wrote:Why should the commander be the only unit able to spot for artillery?
Scouts. Radar. LLT.
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knorke
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Re: What's wrong with XTA? (input for next version)

Post by knorke »

For morphing Arm and Core Commanders to advanced says ÔÇ£morph to a AdvancedÔÇØ change ÔÇ£aÔÇØ toÔÇØ anÔÇØ.
I think "upgrade: 10% hp, 15% dgun range" or something would be better.

dgun seemily random going over units without killing should be fixed. it should just travel across the ground if thats possible. would also prevent lua dgunning airplanes.
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JohannesH
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Re: What's wrong with XTA? (input for next version)

Post by JohannesH »

llt being a spotter is kinda retarded though
raaar
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Re: What's wrong with XTA? (input for next version)

Post by raaar »

i didn't know llts had such a big sight range. I went to the xta folder and it seems all turrets have big los! Some 600, llts and hlts have 900.

It seems the los of many units is also considerably larger than in ota (about 30-50% bigger : 400-500 instead of 300)

I still think some of the mobile units should have los increased a bit (to 400-600).

Is there any way to see where the los ends (the classic fog of war)?
Last edited by raaar on 28 Mar 2010, 21:06, edited 1 time in total.
babbles
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Re: What's wrong with XTA? (input for next version)

Post by babbles »

raaar wrote:Is there any way to see where the los ends (the classic fog of war)?
l
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knorke
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Re: What's wrong with XTA? (input for next version)

Post by knorke »

when i first found out about the large llt los i was like wtf.
but then, what other unit should have good los for spotting?
radar? its too spamable so the tactic to kill enemies los units would be gone. same if los of ie samsons or something would be increased...
raaar
Metal Factions Developer
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Re: What's wrong with XTA? (input for next version)

Post by raaar »

Yesterday i tried the "l" and it seemed it wasn't working. I tried it now and it works. Thanks.
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Jools
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Re: What's wrong with XTA? (input for next version)

Post by Jools »

Is there any way to change the description of the advanced and upgraded commander to just "Commander"? I guess they rely on different units id:s and therefore names, so it might be difficult.

But I think that the Commander isn't a name, it's a military title that shouldn't change if the unit gets more powerful.
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knorke
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Re: What's wrong with XTA? (input for next version)

Post by knorke »

it's a military title that shouldn't change if the unit gets more powerful.
good point actually. but for me it does indeed feel more like a name. and no new unit becomes commander after he dies.
maybe like "The Emperor" in Warhammer 40k

i think mod-technically same name for units is no problem though.
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1v0ry_k1ng
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Re: What's wrong with XTA? (input for next version)

Post by 1v0ry_k1ng »

most of those ideas seem badly thought out, although i have often thought that it would be good to give ak/pw + jeffy/wesel bigger LoS so players lacking coms can still sight for their missles to some ability

commanders in general are fucked up
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AF
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Re: What's wrong with XTA? (input for next version)

Post by AF »

Have you considered making commanders physically larger? For the strength they have they're already rather small
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manolo_
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Re: What's wrong with XTA? (input for next version)

Post by manolo_ »

AF wrote:Have you considered making commanders physically larger? For the strength they have they're already rather small
yeah, on lvl10 he will have the ability to grind down enemy building with his large feet
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Spawn_Retard
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Re: What's wrong with XTA? (input for next version)

Post by Spawn_Retard »

I lol'd at the orriginal post, most of those changes you want are behaviours that have been set in stone for years, and what makes xta great imo.

I guess its your point of view of course, but your really totally reworking the entire mod with some of the stuff your asking for, and your making it BA where everything can see a whole lot more, and everything comes down to whats better on paper rather than what skillfull abillity you can use in a niche situation.

Not to over troll, but i dont want this mod becoming noob friendly(it's happened to too many mods), theres a learning curve, stick with it and enjoy the game, or play BA for 2 years until your confident to try again.

I'd also like to point out i hate some of the orriginal posts change ideas but that hasnt made me bias in any way ;)
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Jools
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Re: What's wrong with XTA? (input for next version)

Post by Jools »

AF wrote:Have you considered making commanders physically larger? For the strength they have they're already rather small
I don't see why strength should correlate with physical size. Commanders are powerful because of their dgun, not because of their 'gorilla' aptitude
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FaerieWithBoots
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Re: What's wrong with XTA? (input for next version)

Post by FaerieWithBoots »

Hi raaar, nice to see new ppl thinking along with the mod. However, i disagree with some of this.

- disable com dgunning com and living (imo it's one of the reasons players dislike this mod)
This issue comes up in every XTA thread sooner or later, so i think we agreed on fixing this.

- construction kbots and vehicles :wait for a few seconds on ready state instead of closing immediately. This will change balance, cause they will be more efficient at helping factories build lev1 units and making lines of dragon's teeth.
How does is it effect ballance, does it appply to one side only?

- should vehicles really be stronger than kbots on flat areas, or should both factories have equally strong options (but with some differences on flavour and unique units). Many maps have big flat areas, making vehicles a better option from the start. Not much choice there.

They are different type of units both with their own role and unique unitset. If one type is used more often then another on a certain map, then thats a map issue. Imo Kbots have a decent chance fighting veh on small/medium size maps (ie geyser planes, altair , tartarus) Compared to BalancedAnnihilation kbots are incredibly strong.

- remove dedicated mine layers from the game, and give all construction units the ability to build mines and mine removers.
All cons minebuilder? ^^ That would result in some funny situations. Con-planes become bombers then, as they can build a mine faster then you can take the plane down. lol Mines are an issue that deserves its own thread, maybe ill make one later.

- increasing the range of most short-ranged, non-missile units. How would XTA play if non-missile units' ranges were increased 25%? or 50%?) This would imply changes to commanders and a lot of other units, though.
This is basicly rebuilding the entire mod. Why would you want to do this in the first place? Ranges are fine as they are imo, maybe some small tweaks but not 50% of the units.


- What about increasing the los? What if the average unit had a sight radius of 600 instead of 400.
You can scout with planes, zippers, radar, llt (as mentioned before) as well. Only moment in the game where scouting becomes difficult is in midgame when you can't get units into the opponents base anymore. You have to guess your opponents intentions at that stage sometimes.


- the arm raven. this unit isn't that expensive and has massive firepower. It will miss its target, but if you get three of four, they can clear a big area with one volley. Imo the unit should be reworked.
Raven is fine imo. Costs a lot, firing takes a lot of E, it is slow and therefore easely killed by T1 and it has very little hitpoints. In return you get massive firepower without accuracy.


- should tier2 units and structures be tweaked down to be more accessible but not as powerful when compared to tier1 units?

T2 labs offer "cheaper" units as well, ie pelican, crock, morty.
T2 is supposed to be more efficient then T1, the labs costs you 2500 metal after all. Making T2 more accesible is an interesting idea though. It would be good to see T2 more often in 1v1. But rebalancing the new factory costs will be extremely hard. T2 bots give you a big advantage in the periode directly after you have finished the lab. 2 mortys, a single pyro or one maverick wreck havock on T1. Making those more accessible would break the game with their current costs.
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