Fix that (balancing) - Page 2

Fix that (balancing)

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FaerieWithBoots
Posts: 149
Joined: 17 Jun 2009, 13:21

Re: Fix that (balancing)

Post by FaerieWithBoots »

Something else to fix:

Torpedo seaplane. It deals WAY to much damage.
mongus
Posts: 1463
Joined: 15 Apr 2005, 18:52

Re: Fix that (balancing)

Post by mongus »

Im talking about direct los. not radar coverage.

So nothing else can "see" where a commander is?

I mean, if a commander is near your base/defenses, and its providing los to attacking units, you wont be able to find it, unless you have a commander in there.
Otherwise it will be able to provide great combat advantage over a lone (of commander) base.

This increases the value of a forward commander lots. or decreases the value of defensive structures.


This is even more accentuated with upgraded commanders.


Note: there is a post by faerie that i cant see, but forums say exist! ?
pintle
Posts: 1763
Joined: 19 Dec 2005, 16:01

Re: Fix that (balancing)

Post by pintle »

Radar has long los and is much cheaper than llt.

LLT/HLT los is a bug, reverted in balance test build.

It is never sensible to build llt for los, you can do the same much much cheaper with radar tower (or mt) it is a bug, end of discussion.
babbles
Posts: 564
Joined: 22 Jul 2008, 02:30

Re: Fix that (balancing)

Post by babbles »

Note: there is a post by faerie that i cant see, but forums say exist! ?
I noticed this, only way to view message was click reply and scroll down to previous posts.

What floris said was:
Something else to fix:

Torpedo seaplane. It deals WAY to much damage.
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Noruas
XTA Developer
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Joined: 24 Feb 2005, 02:58

Re: Fix that (balancing)

Post by Noruas »

LLT/HLT los is a bug, reverted in balance test build.
Spring Bug? I noticed editing the line of sight didn't help much, seemed rather ignored.
mongus
Posts: 1463
Joined: 15 Apr 2005, 18:52

Re: Fix that (balancing)

Post by mongus »

An intentional bug since SE.

The los range, is a matter of scale. (battle scale)
Which means we must theorize about that subject in this mod.
Which is a hole subject.


Radar tower.
sightdistance: 768 vs 612.5 -20.2%
has smaller LOS range than commander.
pintle wrote:It is never sensible to build llt for los
which means that, by its cost, IT CANT BE EXPLOITED. why to fix a non exploit?


Personally i use radar tower for los, and must say, radar towers, die too often. not reliable, you cant suppose to get los by them, as they die instantly. 2-3 radar towers then? lol.



You not even giving a thought about commander vs lone bases.

Lone bases are already weak vs commander.

We will all peril bc of YOU.




blah blah blah blah.

i hope testing shows something.

e:LLT/HLT los is a bug, reverted in balance test build.
its not reverted, its nerfed, 896 -> 550
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1v0ry_k1ng
Posts: 4656
Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 10:24

Re: Fix that (balancing)

Post by 1v0ry_k1ng »

erm, you dont want defences to have low LoS guys. that will reduce their effectiveness a great deal, and make them far more suspectable to dgun from cloak. plus, LoS has to come from somewhere other than the commander or 1hp radar powers- a player without a com is screwed otherwise.
pintle
Posts: 1763
Joined: 19 Dec 2005, 16:01

Re: Fix that (balancing)

Post by pintle »

LLT los was brought into same distance as its range.

If you want greater los on your porc... USE MOBILE UNITS.

Its fucking XTA.

The game is about unit micro-management. If you are incapable of screening some porc with units, you have no place talking about balance.

If you think defenses are worth shit (especially vs com) without a unit screen, you have no place walking about balance.

LLT and HLT los had been fine for YEARS, then the engine changed and it started breaking games, so that has been addressed.

What on earth is added to the game by letting an llt see halfway across the map?
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1v0ry_k1ng
Posts: 4656
Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 10:24

Re: Fix that (balancing)

Post by 1v0ry_k1ng »

LoS for missle units when the com is unavaliable?

part of the reason coms are so overwelming is that almost nothing else provides decent LOS
pintle
Posts: 1763
Joined: 19 Dec 2005, 16:01

Re: Fix that (balancing)

Post by pintle »

Zipper has huge los and can stealth.

You can probe with gator/flash/stumpy/raider in front of an AA firebase.

LLT with huge LoS ruins small map 1v1, and totally kills FFA.
babbles
Posts: 564
Joined: 22 Jul 2008, 02:30

Re: Fix that (balancing)

Post by babbles »

wasn't the reason zipper/freakers were given big los so they be used as scouts for battle lines? I've never seen this...

only them owning bases with their huge hp and speed advantage
mongus
Posts: 1463
Joined: 15 Apr 2005, 18:52

Re: Fix that (balancing)

Post by mongus »

a higher los than range, is logical, as llt must aim before something enters its range.. oh wait, that is not the current behavior.

Well ive argumented all i can, we will have to see ingame.

The problem atm is game is too much commander centric, so its not usual llts dont face lone units, or units dont face lone llts (commander-less). meaning will be hard to test.

pintle wrote:The game is about unit micro-management.
Well i think micro and macro must be well balanced.
Been wondering about this subject specifically.
if you "encourage" micro too much, you are giving an unfair advantage to micro style players. same in the other case, if there is no worthy gain in microing, micro style players are in a loss.
This refers to things like "toggle" (modes) in some units, comm upgrades and caveats/bugs/exploits/unbalanced/unknown units.
Im refering too to things that given insane micro, change the results too much. (this is an exploit imo).

this belongs here
Zipper has huge los and can stealth.
Its a hole subject.




I didnt check, but you changed the value from 8xx to 5xx, meaning it was nerfed? or is this number a tweak? does it give the same result as the old 8xx in real los? Ingame, test 2 shows a los for llt that seems fine, and that is bigger than its range btw.
Was the llt los range actually/really nerfed?

pintle wrote:What on earth is added to the game by letting an llt see halfway across the map?
HM.
well. depends on the twist you want to give to your mod.
Being a ta remanent.... well not so true, they buffed los by 2x (around) when they made SE... but xta could not benefit from that atm.

In a more realistic mod, you should be able to see for 10 km or more.
In a remake of xta i would propose it.
so the answer is realism.
LLT with huge LoS ruins small map 1v1, and totally kills FFA.
revert... .... not nerf.
e:i dont recall (with the usual llt los, not broken one) this situation. Commander can see almost the same range, and is mobile, cloakable and has more hp.


Finally, ilets test the change, and see what happens, and hopefully we will get enough testing.
babbles
Posts: 564
Joined: 22 Jul 2008, 02:30

Re: Fix that (balancing)

Post by babbles »

desert triad is a good example, I put a llt on a hill near Jools's base, I could see into it meaning I could easily pick off his stuff

it means I don't need to have my commander at that specific point at that time, don't need to risk him

also, you mention making the los same as their range so they can shoot, same for mts, hlts, guardians, annhilators heck why not give it to the bertha and vulcan?
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Tribulex
A.N.T.S. Developer
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Joined: 26 Sep 2009, 21:26

Re: Fix that (balancing)

Post by Tribulex »

pintle wrote:Zipper has huge los and can stealth.

You can probe with gator/flash/stumpy/raider in front of an AA firebase.

LLT with huge LoS ruins small map 1v1, and totally kills FFA.
pintle is as usual 100% correct. I agree with everything he says, even if he says i am not the best xta player because we all know he and I would be kidding.
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AF
AI Developer
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Joined: 14 Sep 2004, 11:32

Re: Fix that (balancing)

Post by AF »

XTA isn't about unit micromanagement, this is just something that crept in when we eradicated all the alyers of our player base outside of the veterans


Unit micromanagement should give you an advantage.

NOT

Unit micromanagement is necessary to play

Unless i have a good grasp of unit micromanagement, I will loose the game every single time. This is a horrific way of doing things. Its even worse than starcraft, and the most damning part of it is that we're actively encouraging balancing towards this despite the horrible crippling effect this has on the viability of XTA as a game.

XTA is all about a swarm/line of units infront of a commander pushing up against a front.

There are other tactics and strategies, but these assume the above strategy is currently successful at holding the line, making the necessary tax on the brain too great for anyone but the most skilled of people.

Did nobody wonder why people left for BA.....
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manolo_
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Joined: 01 Jul 2008, 00:08

Re: Fix that (balancing)

Post by manolo_ »

the fluctation of xta-vets to ba is really low
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JohannesH
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Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 12:43

Re: Fix that (balancing)

Post by JohannesH »

AF wrote:Unless i have a good grasp of unit micromanagement, I will loose the game every single time.
If youre worse than your opponent you shouldnt lose? Whatd be the point of getting better (ie. playing the game) then...
babbles
Posts: 564
Joined: 22 Jul 2008, 02:30

Re: Fix that (balancing)

Post by babbles »

if you have a poor grasp of macro you're going to lose as well so...
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TheMightyOne
Posts: 492
Joined: 26 Feb 2007, 14:32

Re: Fix that (balancing)

Post by TheMightyOne »

babbles wrote:if you have a poor grasp of macro you're going to lose as well so...
+1
AF wrote:XTA is all about a swarm/line of units infront of a commander pushing up against a front.
that's the conclusion you've made after the 1,5 games you've played and 2,3 games you've specced recently?


here is my point of view:
nobody microed xta towards unit-micromanagement its just that players realized that you can achieve more if you micro better. i'm pretty sure that if we had a time machine our current vets would beat all the v0.66 (or whatever version it was SY last released) pros, because they know how to micro units right.

if i beat you with my superior micro you say "it's all about micro" but if i play vs babbs/janid/pintle/floris/ray etc. i'm not able to just outmicro them, their skills equals mine so at that point each one of us has to use strategies and tactics and tricks and whats not. why should i bother with this when playing some noob? its just so much easier to outmicro him.

same goes for BA i suppose, when i play it "its all about spam" but its only because of my lack of skill that i cant see past it.
babbles
Posts: 564
Joined: 22 Jul 2008, 02:30

Re: Fix that (balancing)

Post by babbles »

I agree TMO, however,
if i beat you with my superior micro you say "it's all about micro" but if i play vs babbs/janid/pintle/floris/ray etc. i'm not able to just outmicro them, their skills equals mine
:p
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