Replacing the models with something beautiful and free
Moderator: Content Developer
Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free
The conflict is primarily between the players rather than the developers, and it has been mutually pursued for a prolonged period of time. The distinction is little muddled, of course - most of the developers of CA are active players, and the only current maintainer of BA is an ex-CA developer.
Incidentally, TFC, you're the only maintainer mainly because the rest of those around NOiZE had no interest in working directly on BA. Day was more interested in playing games and saw no need to direct the project, Sleksa has never been wildly interested in developing and I no longer had any interest in working with TA content. Perhaps one or more of us should have stepped up to work with you, but for the above reasons, we thus far have not.
I do keep an eye on the affairs of BA, as I did for AA, and if any felt that there was not enough moderator oversight they did not bring it up with me. Since NOiZE was the primary moderation champion of the project as well as my friend, I am willing to fill that position though I am not, as mentioned above, terribly interested in the TA legacy. Just remember to report posts as necessary, and feel free to message me if a particularly egregious situation comes up.
Incidentally, TFC, you're the only maintainer mainly because the rest of those around NOiZE had no interest in working directly on BA. Day was more interested in playing games and saw no need to direct the project, Sleksa has never been wildly interested in developing and I no longer had any interest in working with TA content. Perhaps one or more of us should have stepped up to work with you, but for the above reasons, we thus far have not.
I do keep an eye on the affairs of BA, as I did for AA, and if any felt that there was not enough moderator oversight they did not bring it up with me. Since NOiZE was the primary moderation champion of the project as well as my friend, I am willing to fill that position though I am not, as mentioned above, terribly interested in the TA legacy. Just remember to report posts as necessary, and feel free to message me if a particularly egregious situation comes up.
- TheFatController
- Balanced Annihilation Developer
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free
You make it sound like NOIZE picked a random member of the community which I find pretty devaluing tbh - I made 2-3 releases and NOIZE checked and released them before he announced he was handing the project over I don't doubt that if i'd been unsuitable for the job that it wouldn't have happened.neddiedrow wrote:Incidentally, TFC, you're the only maintainer mainly because the rest of those around NOiZE had no interest in working directly on BA.
If you have any comments on BA why not message me in the lobby as thus far I have had little or no feedback from any of the people you've mentioned.
I did not leave the project over the drones, probably the reason you don't know why I left the project is cause I was quite polite about it and left without outlining my issues.Saktoth wrote:However, TFC is an ex-CA dev who had a 'falling out' over the implimentation of carrier drones (AFAIR). I wouldnt categorize TFC's attitude as 'willing to work on joint projects', he has expressed nothing but active hostility for CA, though ill let him correct the record on that one.
I am hostile to the [CA] idiots who hang out in #main making snide comments and the whole idea of a mod war and trying to market your mod through superficial comparisons to BA, even if it was my project I wouldn't want this going on cause its divisive and bad for the community.
- KingRaptor
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free
As opposed to the BA fanbois who insult CA every time the name is mentioned in #main (TradeMark especially)? I've seen BA players routinely saying CA sucks (and insulting CA players) without explaining why or offering the most ridiculous reasons. I did notice an increase in CA players trolling BA recently though, so I did put up a channel message telling people not to do that.TheFatController wrote:I am hostile to the [CA] idiots who hang out in #main making snide comments and the whole idea of a mod war and trying to market your mod through superficial comparisons to BA, even if it was my project I wouldn't want this going on cause its divisive and bad for the community.
That said, you've said things yourself which we have reason to take offense at (in particular, your insinuation that quantum would stoop to deliberately coding Mission Editor to break with BA).
Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free
Any inferences of that nature are your own, I simply said that there were others and we dropped the ball on BA development. I was seeking only to explain why you're the only full-time maintainer when there should be multiple, not to devalue your contributions to this particular project.
I am going to be rather direct here; if you distort what I say, filtering through a defensive perspective, it is not my responsibility to set you straight. If you decide to seek offense in every statement I produce, regardless of content or context, that is your problem. I am not your enemy, I am not attacking you.
I am going to be rather direct here; if you distort what I say, filtering through a defensive perspective, it is not my responsibility to set you straight. If you decide to seek offense in every statement I produce, regardless of content or context, that is your problem. I am not your enemy, I am not attacking you.
- TheFatController
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free
This would have sounded a lot better without the strawmanneddiedrow wrote:I am going to be rather direct here; if you distort what I say, filtering through a defensive perspective, it is not my responsibility to set you straight. If you decide to seek offense in every statement I produce, regardless of content or context, that is your problem. I am not your enemy, I am not attacking you.
Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free
There is no straw man, I have not misrepresented your responses to my posts in this thread, and this is clearly evident from the perusal of said responses. You consistently filter out the majority of what I say and thus far only respond to elements which you apparently perceive as assaults or slights.
- TheFatController
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free
I responded to the part that concerned me, as did Sakoth quoting the same block, I did take your 'you are only BA developer mainly because...' comment as a slight and if you didn't mean it to be then that's fine.neddiedrow wrote:There is no straw man, I have not misrepresented your responses to my posts in this thread, and this is clearly evident from the perusal of said responses. You consistently filter out the majority of what I say and thus far only respond to elements which you apparently perceive as assaults or slights.
Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free
I think the main difference is that the CA community appears to be more of a contiguous group with solidarity - mostly due to the CA tag. BA players insulting CA appear to just be random players yelling 'ca sux'; CA players insulting BA appear to form a more organized opinionation structure....and possibly the loudest most annoying fanatic around here is a CA personKingRaptor wrote:As opposed to the BA fanbois who insult CA every time the name is mentioned in #main (TradeMark especially)? I've seen BA players routinely saying CA sucks (and insulting CA players) without explaining why or offering the most ridiculous reasons. I did notice an increase in CA players trolling BA recently though, so I did put up a channel message telling people not to do that.
It really does look like you were insulting or trivializing TFC's position. It is far from uncommon for a person to disregard the less interesting points of a post in favour of the more significant ones - the latter being what was quite easily perceived as an attack and the former being whatever you were going on about aside from that.neddiedrow wrote:You consistently filter out the majority of what I say and thus far only respond to elements which you apparently perceive as assaults or slights.
Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free
Any player without a CA tag is automatically a BA player.
Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free
I dont mean to contradict you TFC, but i believe you parting words were something along the lines of 'Why would you change drones for balance reasons, who takes balance seriously in CA anyway, CA sux, CA is a joke, CA is just a develepor sandbox toy mod'.
When rather the contrary is true, you ran headlong directly into us prioritizing balance over pet projects and toys when we nerfed carrier drones for balance reasons. I was rather surprised by the ferocity of your reaction.
I believe, though, that the deeper conflict regarding 'balance' was that you believed CA should simply revert to BA balance and not make any significant gameplay changes. Not really a reasonable option at that point.
Correct me if i am wrong- i am going on memory and this was almost a year ago.
When rather the contrary is true, you ran headlong directly into us prioritizing balance over pet projects and toys when we nerfed carrier drones for balance reasons. I was rather surprised by the ferocity of your reaction.
I believe, though, that the deeper conflict regarding 'balance' was that you believed CA should simply revert to BA balance and not make any significant gameplay changes. Not really a reasonable option at that point.
Correct me if i am wrong- i am going on memory and this was almost a year ago.
Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free
BA and CA arguing? come now, guys, you are cut from the same cloth
- TheFatController
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free
I can't even imagine what your motive for making that up is, I am not the Emmanuel Goldstein of the CA project - grow up idiot.Saktoth wrote:but i believe you parting words were something along the lines of 'Why would you change drones for balance reasons, who takes balance seriously in CA anyway, CA sux, CA is a joke, CA is just a develepor sandbox toy mod'.
Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free
Oh wow, mod developers and moderators derailing a thread into flamewar?
I'm not sure what OP is after. Even if all models were replaced with new ones based on the originals, distributing the game free would still be on the moral grey ground imo. I can think of 2 reasons to attempt "freeing" BA from TA IP, possible lawsuit/whatever and the advertisement (it's not plausible to advertise illegal stuff). Both require the mod to be completely free of any copyrighted stuff, including derivative works. If you just want prettier visuals, sleksa is right, consistency/overall look comes first. Complete set of units is a massive modelling work. By all means go ahead but it's a waste of time imo.
I'm not sure what OP is after. Even if all models were replaced with new ones based on the originals, distributing the game free would still be on the moral grey ground imo. I can think of 2 reasons to attempt "freeing" BA from TA IP, possible lawsuit/whatever and the advertisement (it's not plausible to advertise illegal stuff). Both require the mod to be completely free of any copyrighted stuff, including derivative works. If you just want prettier visuals, sleksa is right, consistency/overall look comes first. Complete set of units is a massive modelling work. By all means go ahead but it's a waste of time imo.
Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free
Forgive me if i am mistaken, i did not make it up, i was merely trying to clear the air on the issue. I remember you being exceptionally angry about carrier drones. The ticket you started on the topic can be found here: http://trac.caspring.org/ticket/277TheFatController wrote:I can't even imagine what your motive for making that up is, I am not the Emmanuel Goldstein of the CA project - grow up idiot.
Although you are obviously annoyed (two exclamation points!!) i do remember a very heated exchange in chat on the issue, and you quitting afterwards. I remember being VERY surprised by how much trouble it caused, since you had said earlier that they were rough and needed to be balanced. For the record i appreciate your work on CA, carrier drones are a good addition (still in the game) and i had requested them a year earlier (and people say CA isnt working to any kind of long-term plan!).
Certainly such comments would not make you the Emmanuel Goldstein of CA. We have heard much worse. Perhaps that kind of stuff sounds very bad to you, but abuse of that sort is actually pretty par for the course for us. A lot of BA players feel the need to say things such as that, often without even having played the mod.
Again, forgive me if i have misrememberd the event and have conflated this with someone elses critcism, as i said it was almost a year ago.
Am i also incorrect in saying that your position was that we should revert to BA balance? (We also get this alot).
Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free
nohunterw wrote:BA and CA arguing? come now, guys, you are cut from the same cloth
- CarRepairer
- Cursed Zero-K Developer
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free
Of course. http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.ph ... 75#p309675Saktoth wrote:Am i also incorrect in saying that your position was that we should revert to BA balance? (We also get this alot).
It's not unreasonable to desire this.TheFatController wrote:Imo great things could be done if you just took CA from around revision 1200ish (pre-economy centre, pre-normalization scripts) before it started to go downhill and turn it into what it should have been - a proper effort to improve and add exciting new features to the AA/BA line of mods.
- TheFatController
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free
As I said I don't get what the motive behind this character attacking is for, digging up old forum posts to prove what exactly?
Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free
In response to the OP: when the day arrives, that if a modeler submits a replacement for a given 3DO and it is accepted and scripted by grateful maintainers unless a superior model is available (in the maintainers opinion), this goal will be rapidly achieved.
The only thing stopping this is that people here have created a culture where they actually expect artists to revise their work endlessly and satisfy them, instead of creating a culture where the goal is more important than a single part.
When everything is a IP-free S3O... then it's fine to start being discriminating. Not until that day arrives, however. That truly is why this hasn't gotten done.
It's a matter of attitude, not aptitude. Emulate Evo's model, which you can see making incredibly rapid progress on a daily basis, and this will all get done, really fast. Forb doesn't bitch at the people working on that, or ask for endless changes... and voila, the artists are motivated and get things done. Not hard, really. It just requires an attitude towards the artists that isn't paternalistic.
Now, will all of it be excellent? No. But even the un-excellent will be superior to the 3DOs... if for no other reason than the fact that if their base geometry isn't terrible, then they can be reskinned and look decent later.
The only thing stopping this is that people here have created a culture where they actually expect artists to revise their work endlessly and satisfy them, instead of creating a culture where the goal is more important than a single part.
When everything is a IP-free S3O... then it's fine to start being discriminating. Not until that day arrives, however. That truly is why this hasn't gotten done.
It's a matter of attitude, not aptitude. Emulate Evo's model, which you can see making incredibly rapid progress on a daily basis, and this will all get done, really fast. Forb doesn't bitch at the people working on that, or ask for endless changes... and voila, the artists are motivated and get things done. Not hard, really. It just requires an attitude towards the artists that isn't paternalistic.
Now, will all of it be excellent? No. But even the un-excellent will be superior to the 3DOs... if for no other reason than the fact that if their base geometry isn't terrible, then they can be reskinned and look decent later.
Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free
The problem isnt that the models somehow wouldnt be good enough for ba, but rather that they dont have a finished set of arm& core unit modelsArgh wrote: The only thing stopping this is that people here have created a culture where they actually expect artists to revise their work endlessly and satisfy them, instead of creating a culture where the goal is more important than a single part.
Yeah, i dont understand why saktoth is so bent on throwing shit at you :xAs I said I don't get what the motive behind this character attacking is for, digging up old forum posts to prove what exactly?
Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free
I think Argh is saying "less talk, more modelling". And never say no to a model - half-assed is better than no-assed, which is what BA has right now. Argh has a workflow that lets him crank out models at a hellish pace. That's the kind of BA approach the BA replacement project would need - instead of the time that Mr. D made like 4 different versions of the Banisher.