Replacing the models with something beautiful and free - Page 2

Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

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MidKnight
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

Post by MidKnight »

Hrm...
...I smell lots of ambition here!

I shall respond with cynicism!
CYNICISM

There are very few content producers willing to commit massive amount of their time to a goal that may or may not be achieved, and even if it is achieved, puts BA on questionable legal ground, as the unit concepts are still Cavedog. Additionally, it is very hard to work within the original TA unit concept, while retaining the aesthetic and improving the model. Thirdly, the fact that this effort won't return anything until it is 100% finished discourages even the most persistent artists.

There you go. Cynicism delivered.
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zwzsg
Kernel Panic Co-Developer
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

Post by zwzsg »

I would say "LoL, play CA" but you'll probably just dismiss it as trolling without even thinking about it.
YokoZar
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

Post by YokoZar »

MidKnight wrote:There are very few content producers willing to commit massive amount of their time to a goal that may or may not be achieved, and even if it is achieved, puts BA on questionable legal ground, as the unit concepts are still Cavedog.
Concepts and imitations are not necessarily derivative works, especially when the original creation drew upon already unoriginal themes (eg robots, tanks, laser guns, etc).
Additionally, it is very hard to work within the original TA unit concept, while retaining the aesthetic and improving the model.
From what I've seen of work that has already been done, a few modelers have pulled it off beautifully. Iconic units like the flash tank, stumpy, and metal extractor really should be faithful, however the modeler will likely have much more freedom when updating units that are hardly ever used or never quite looked right in the first place (eg the advanced metal storage)
Thirdly, the fact that this effort won't return anything until it is 100% finished discourages even the most persistent artists.

There you go. Cynicism delivered.
The idea is that modelers can see their work in progress by playing the mutator. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that the mutator will get a substantial number of players once it starts looking mostly pretty (particularly if we also use it as an alpha test for potentially more substantial changes to BA itself).

For instance, I'd really like to observe how floating LLTs would affect the game, but it's way too dramatic of a change for TheFatController to just dump into a new BA release as a complete experiment -- a mod option in a mutator, however, is a great place to do such an experiment.


And, just in case there's any confusion, I want to say right now that I have no interest in forking BA. TheFatController is doing a good job.
YokoZar
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

Post by YokoZar »

zwzsg wrote:I would say "LoL, play CA" but you'll probably just dismiss it as trolling without even thinking about it.
The main issue with CA is that it is deliberately not BA gameplay or economy. I like BA gameplay and economy.
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Beherith
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

Post by Beherith »

If you just give me a mutator with Mr Ds core models I will be as happy as a clam, since I play core only.
el_matarife
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

Post by el_matarife »

Honestly, what needs to happen is a joint project between CA, XTA, BA, and any other mod using the original TA units. Since I know there's practically no chance in hell of that happening, maybe we could reach out to Caydr. He was claiming to have remodeled something like 1/3rd of the units in AA at the time. If he's still got them, we could combine them with various other models that are already done and have a good starting basis. There's also a ton of units in BA that are from random creators on TA Universe that don't necessarily need to be rebuilt from scratch, if we can track down their original creators and get them to relicense their work.
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TheFatController
Balanced Annihilation Developer
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

Post by TheFatController »

zwzsg wrote:I would say "LoL, play CA" but you'll probably just dismiss it as trolling without even thinking about it.
I'd go more with desperate than trolling in the context of a discussion about BA in the BA subforum.
el_matarife
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

Post by el_matarife »

I'd also like to get out my soapbox and say that the hostility of CA towards BA is counterproductive and stupid. Seriously guys, bury the hatchet. I know FatController is willing to work with you guys on joint objectives that are important to both projects if you'd just stop being so catty. Noize is gone, Caydr is gone, we should all be able to work together since any people in AA or BA involved in starting this "feud" are gone.
YokoZar
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

Post by YokoZar »

el_matarife wrote:Honestly, what needs to happen is a joint project between CA, XTA, BA, and any other mod using the original TA units. Since I know there's practically no chance in hell of that happening, maybe we could reach out to Caydr. He was claiming to have remodeled something like 1/3rd of the units in AA at the time.
Could we just download an old copy and see?
If he's still got them, we could combine them with various other models that are already done and have a good starting basis. There's also a ton of units in BA that are from random creators on TA Universe that don't necessarily need to be rebuilt from scratch, if we can track down their original creators and get them to relicense their work.
We probably want to remodel most of the unit-universe ones anyway to make them more beautiful and more consistent. It is, after all, over a decade later in 3d tech. You're right that in terms of freeing BA they're less important though.
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zwzsg
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

Post by zwzsg »

YokoZar wrote:eg the advanced metal storage
Speaking of faithfullness, you do know that Cavedog never made such a unit, I hope?
YokoZar wrote:The main issue with CA is that it is deliberately not BA gameplay or economy. I like BA gameplay and economy.
Yes, the CA 3D models are tainted by the terrible gameplay and economy, merely looking at them would compromise the purity of BA gameplay. So instead of taking already existing remodels, let's just ask modellers to re-re-re-redo all TA models one more times.
YokoZar
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

Post by YokoZar »

zwzsg wrote:
YokoZar wrote:eg the advanced metal storage
Speaking of faithfullness, you do know that Cavedog never made such a unit, I hope?
By "faithful" for the third-party units I mean more along the lines of "looks consistent with everything else".
YokoZar wrote:The main issue with CA is that it is deliberately not BA gameplay or economy. I like BA gameplay and economy.
Yes, the CA 3D models are tainted by the terrible gameplay and economy, merely looking at them would compromise the purity of BA gameplay. So instead of taking already existing remodels, let's just ask modellers to re-re-re-redo all TA models one more times.
Sorry, I seriously misinterpreted what you said. I thought you were saying something like "if you want free stop playing BA and go play CA" but what you're actually saying is something far more reasonable (play CA for inspiration and look for things you can take). I've already done that, although I don't quite play CA too often ;)

As Matarife said, there's absolutely room for us to work together.
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Sleksa
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

Post by Sleksa »

zwzsg wrote:I would say "LoL, play CA" but you'll probably just dismiss it as trolling without even thinking about it.
IIRC , some people were offering the models currently in use at ca.

The reason why they werent implented was that they did not have a consistent SET of all the units, and having 50% old models, and 50% new models wouldve looked weird and confusing.
el_matarife
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

Post by el_matarife »

YokoZar wrote: Could we just download an old copy and see?
Caydr never released them in AA or otherwise. The only real evidence they exist is his word and I think a few screen shots. Anyone know if he's been around lately?
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Neddie
Community Lead
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

Post by Neddie »

I'd also like to get out my soapbox and say that the hostility of BA towards CA is counterproductive and stupid. Seriously guys, bury the hatchet. I know tonnes of people are willing to work with you guys on joint objectives that are important to both projects if you'd just stop being so catty. We should all be able to work together since each draws upon different core player bases and any pretense toward competition is gone.

Anyway, you want consistent, new, probably IP free models which are visually attractive yet reminiscent of the OTA legacy. There are a number of partial sets avaliable, Mr. D has made a few, Saktoth has a number of replacements that merely substitute for roles originated by OTA models and are stylistically similar to one another, Cremuss has a partial building set...

If you want a full set, you could find models of sufficient quality and structural cohesion currently in the Spring community covering roughly 75% of the total. If you strip their textures and generate new ones, these could probably be substituted in easily, but then you would need some modelers to fill in the gaps.
YokoZar
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

Post by YokoZar »

Sleksa wrote:
zwzsg wrote:I would say "LoL, play CA" but you'll probably just dismiss it as trolling without even thinking about it.
IIRC , some people were offering the models currently in use at ca.

The reason why they werent implented was that they did not have a consistent SET of all the units, and having 50% old models, and 50% new models wouldve looked weird and confusing.
This "weird and confusing" is precisely what I'm going to put into the mutator, by the way. As it gets more and more done it'll be less weird and confusing and more "beautiful and awesome".
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hunterw
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

Post by hunterw »

guys the solution is simple - just remake the old units with the same proportions but with more polys and UV mapping. hell, you can get away with using most of the old textures even - they just need to be UV mapped and they will stop looking goofy. OTA models' texturing is vertex-based and awful looking, but most textures themselves honestly aren't that bad.

this is the way to go since you can replace a single model and it won't look out of place and shitty, and by the end everything will still be cohesive and OTA styled but with modern polycount and texturing.
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TheFatController
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

Post by TheFatController »

neddiedrow wrote:I'd also like to get out my soapbox and say that the hostility of BA towards CA is counterproductive and stupid.
How exactly do you define 'BA' here? The BA developers are myself and NOIZE (retired), my personal opinion is that it's a good sign that the BA community is now sticking up for itsself more, there's a lot of unwarranted abuse directed against BA especially attempts to attract the playerbase away with negative campaigning (not just CA, but BasiC on behalf of SA has also attempted this). BA has also been fair game for some time as it was not seen has having an 'owner' or 'someone to get offended' so the forum mods have been lax in enforcing the nonconstructive criticism rules.

That aside, I do occasionally involved in silly arguments in #main and am guilty of answering childish criticism with more childish criticism partly because this is a game and this is the internet and it's best to not take things too seriously.
YokoZar
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

Post by YokoZar »

hunterw wrote:guys the solution is simple - just remake the old units with the same proportions but with more polys and UV mapping. hell, you can get away with using most of the old textures even - they just need to be UV mapped and they will stop looking goofy. OTA models' texturing is vertex-based and awful looking, but most textures themselves honestly aren't that bad.

this is the way to go since you can replace a single model and it won't look out of place and shitty, and by the end everything will still be cohesive and OTA styled but with modern polycount and texturing.
I've made some progress on the mutator, and it surprises me how much the new units fit in. I'll try to make a release by next weekend.
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Forboding Angel
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

Post by Forboding Angel »

I originally did it as a joke but it DOES look really nice, even though it's the same cavedog model.

http://evolutionrts.info/random/lolflash.zip

The layered psd is in that file, so you can change around the texture if you feel the need, but I felt that the color scheme fit in with arm pretty well.

I've already posed my views in the other thread (that basically you could jsut s3o the current models and with a proper texture they would look fantastic compared to now, etc), so yar.
Saktoth
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

Post by Saktoth »

el_matarife wrote:I'd also like to get out my soapbox and say that the hostility of CA towards BA is counterproductive and stupid.
Our what towards whatnow? We never had a fued with Noize. Any historical 'fued' is between the playerbase rather than the devs.

However, TFC is an ex-CA dev who had a 'falling out' over the implimentation of carrier drones (AFAIR). I wouldnt categorize TFC's attitude as 'willing to work on joint projects', he has expressed nothing but active hostility for CA, though ill let him correct the record on that one.

Sharing models is kind of impossible. CA's goal is to be free of OTA IP entirely- even the unit designs, faction names, logos, etc. We may need to change some of Mr.D's models for these reasons (Though most of the designs deviate enough) and we will CERTAINLY have to scrub off the logos. BA wants to stick as closely to the origional designs as possible in order that the units look recognisable.

That being said, BA is free to take most if not all of our models because A. Half of them, IE Mr.D's stuff, arent made for CA and are free for anyone. B. The stuff that is made for CA is under open liscences. Its just that the Noize (and now it seems, TFC) havent been interested.

Yoko, regarding your list, everything you listed (barring air pad and juno) isnt an OTA unit, they are free 3rd party units that have no reason to be replaced. All the need is new textures (which CA already has).
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