Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

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YokoZar
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Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

Post by YokoZar »

It's been a long term goal of mine to help "free" BA of its legacy TA content. Gameplay concepts are not copyrightable, so at this point all we need to worry about are the models, which we should probably replace for aesthetic reasons anyway.

I agree with TheFatController about the need to make sure that BA stays BA. Accordingly, any new model for a unit should be easily recognizable as the original, and should function identically in gameplay. A replacement for the solar plant, for instance, would still need to open and close.

Now, doing this is a lot of work, and TheFatController is busy enough already, so I'd like to help with this as much as I can short of making actual models (I'm a bad artist). It's also not something we can "partially" do - mixing new models in with old ones can cause some rather ugly contrast.


Some great modelers have been very nice and taken the first step towards making really beautiful new models for our loved units. In return we've acted like jerks and ignored them. I think this should change.

Accordingly, I'd like to start a mutator to collect these models together and place them inside BA, which I hope will become a mod option "use new models". I propose every new unit live alongside the old ones in the zip file, being renamed with word "new" added to the front (eg armsolar -> newarmsolar). This way modelers can see their work in action, note that we really are accepting it, and be inspired to continue.
YokoZar
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

Post by YokoZar »

Design guidelines for new models to be acceptable for inclusion:

I've talked with TheFatController during games about models, and he and I agree that units shouldn't change much in their aesthetic quality at all. I'll be posting some design guidelines here once I can finalize them with TheFatController, but for now I'll put it like this:

Units that look good but too different aren't going to be included, unless no one is attached to the original model anyway.

So, in the meantime, post your nominations for current units that could use a more substantial aesthetic change. My nominations:
  • Arm Advanced Fusion Reactor: clashes with everything
  • Core Advanced Fusion Reactor: clashes with everything
  • Arm Marauder (t3 fast kbot): looks very weird, shoots even weirder
  • Arm Stiletto (emp bomber): doesn't look like an arm unit, too different from rest of the planes
  • Arm Blade: same as the stiletto
  • Arm Consul: doesn't look like a construction unit (lacks the yellow/black stripes and grey/white nano-holder)
  • Arm Juno: clashes with everything, looks nothing like a missile launcher
  • Core Juno: same as Arm juno
Units that could be changed since they are almost never built anyway:
  • Air repair pad
  • Advanced metal storage
  • Advanced energy storage
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TheFatController
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

Post by TheFatController »

Just to make it clear:

I am not in favour of switching out any of BA's models with new ones unless any existing ones are broken in anyway (eg bad textures etc).


I would support a mutator (not included in the BA archive) and if by some miracle every model was replaced with something that both fitted the OTA feel and didn't look too wildly different to the existing model the above could be reconsidered.
YokoZar
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

Post by YokoZar »

TheFatController wrote:Just to make it clear:

I am not in favour of switching out any of BA's models with new ones unless any existing ones are broken in anyway (eg bad textures etc).
Yes, I agree, having a few old and a few new ones mixed together would be weird looking and ugly.
I would support a mutator (not included in the BA archive) and if by some miracle every model was replaced with something that both fitted the OTA feel and didn't look too wildly different to the existing model the above could be reconsidered.
Yeah, this was my intention. Other than the disk space, I'm curious if there's any other drawbacks to just having the models side-by-side with a modoption -- would it necessarily overpopulate menus for instance? Or were you worried about people playing with half-and-half models all the time?
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TheFatController
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

Post by TheFatController »

YokoZar wrote:Yeah, this was my intention. Other than the disk space, I'm curious if there's any other drawbacks to just having the models side-by-side with a modoption -- would it necessarily overpopulate menus for instance? Or were you worried about people playing with half-and-half models all the time?
Every unit with a new model would have to be a new unit (eg. corcom2 etc) which would cause a lot of hassle for scripts and buildlists and such and clutter up the mod with stuff.

Also the half-and-half thing.
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Pxtl
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

Post by Pxtl »

Karganeth needs a new model. It is the only vertical-terrain unit that does _not_ have arthropodic legs. Every other hillclimber has at least 4 bug-like legs, but Karg has bird-joint legs. This convention-breaker is a huge bit of confusion for newbs.
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TheFatController
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

Post by TheFatController »

Pxtl wrote:Karganeth needs a new model. It is the only vertical-terrain unit that does _not_ have arthropodic legs. Every other hillclimber has at least 4 bug-like legs, but Karg has bird-joint legs. This convention-breaker is a huge bit of confusion for newbs.
I'd rather remove its all terrain and change its role to the same as the razorback/shiva and change the shiva to something else, but that's another story!
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Pxtl
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

Post by Pxtl »

Either way, the point stands - Arm has an all-terrain t3 kbot that actually _looks_ like an all-terrain unit, Core's doesn't. Whether you leave it as is or change the Shiva into an all-terrain + amphib kbot, you need a T3 Core unit with bug-legs.
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lurker
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

Post by lurker »

TheFatController wrote:Every unit with a new model would have to be a new unit (eg. corcom2 etc)
No it wouldn't.

The only good reason I see is avoiding bloat.
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TheFatController
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

Post by TheFatController »

lurker wrote:
TheFatController wrote:Every unit with a new model would have to be a new unit (eg. corcom2 etc)
No it wouldn't.

The only good reason I see is avoiding bloat.
So you can have one unitname and have it use a different model and cob script with lua?
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KaiserJ
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

Post by KaiserJ »

hiya yoko!

me personally, i like this idea. if there were remodels of every unit, it would be a cinch to change the rest of the content (names etc) to something other than the OTA standard, freeing BA of IP, and allowing springs most popular mod to be properly advertised on sites outside of the community. i would imagine that this would create a bloom of new players, not just for BA, but for other mods as well as people enter the community and try out the different things available.

from having worked on making a lot of units in a short time for evolution RTS, i have a good idea of how long it would take for me to remake all of the units from TA... a long, long freaking time.

for this idea to work, you'll need a fairly large, dedicated team of modders not only to tackle the art side of the task, but as well the implementation of the new artwork (animation, effects, stuff that i personally have no clue as to how to do.) the problem that i see with this, is that most, if not all of the experienced modders already have other projects that they are working on. beyond that, it's hard to get a rookie to contribute to a project that hasn't gotten off the ground.... im sure if you started getting things done and showing the results, you'd have more people jumping on the bandwagon.

i dont mean to dissuade your idea, i like BA and i like the idea of it becoming IP free... it'll just take a hell of a lot of work to complete, and a hell of a lot of organization from the get-go. on a positive note, if you DO get this going, you can count on me to do at least one labs worth of units (a lab and the units it creates... probably something like core hovers or seaplanes)

anyways have a look at the remakes that already exist, cremuss and mr D have a ton of units that (IIRC) are free to use in a mod, and as well treeform posted some ARM vech remakes that look pretty damned cool. and if you're worried about artwork, try to learn BOS... that way you can help artists.

cheers and good luck!
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Pxtl
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

Post by Pxtl »

A free game that implements BA's gameplay would be a nice project, but it's never going to happen. Look at CA - they've got tons of people working on it but they're not even putting a dent in the overall need.

The problem is that the only people who really drive themselves to put out this much stuff are the ones who take ownership of their projects. Smoth is making HIS game. Argh is making HIS game. Fanger is makign HIS game. Who's going to pour that much work into someone *elses* game?

At least CA has crazier units and fewer dull resource units, so anything you make is going to have some personality... but who's going to get excited about redesigning the moho metal maker?

Very few people are making TA remodels that are anything other than "OTA remodelled". That is, the new units look like variants of their source versions.

Plus, everyone obsesses about making the game thematically consistent (never mind that OTA wasn't - the Sumo looks nothing like the rest of the Core army), so it just won't happen since you need like 2-3 people to sit down and agree to a them to work on somebody-else's-project.

The only real solution is the one that will irritate peopl - More Stealing From CA.
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TheFatController
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

Post by TheFatController »

Pxtl wrote:(never mind that OTA wasn't - the Sumo looks nothing like the rest of the Core army)
I for one like the crazy OTA unit design.
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Pxtl
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

Post by Pxtl »

I agree. I just kind of giggle when people make fun of CA how there's no conceptual consistency. The only one I can think of in BA is that Core uses more greys.
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Jazcash
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

Post by Jazcash »

Perhaps once every unit is remodeled, we could test run it for a while to see how it works and what players feel about it. Maybe make it an option or w/e.

However, I'd prefer it if this was to happen, that it happened at once, not bit by bit like CA. It's very messy and mixes up yummy and eww which isn't particularly delish.

Of course, if we are going to go ahead with marketing Spring big time, we'll probably need to do something about BA eventually.
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Pxtl
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

Post by Pxtl »

@Jazcash - the idea of the free-content BA mod is that it is developed over-time in parallel with BA, and then the switchover happens once it's complete (if ever).
YokoZar
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

Post by YokoZar »

Pxtl wrote:@Jazcash - the idea of the free-content BA mod is that it is developed over-time in parallel with BA, and then the switchover happens once it's complete (if ever).
Exactly. You can think of it as the experimental or alpha branch of BA that takes forever to be merged in.

And since it is acting like that, we may as well use the mutator to do minor experiments as mod options, particularly ones that involve changing the models
YokoZar
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

Post by YokoZar »

KaiserJ wrote:hiya yoko!
for this idea to work, you'll need a fairly large, dedicated team of modders not only to tackle the art side of the task, but as well the implementation of the new artwork (animation, effects, stuff that i personally have no clue as to how to do.) the problem that i see with this, is that most, if not all of the experienced modders already have other projects that they are working on.
I was very impressed when I found already-complete units in the mods subforum, including movement scripts.
beyond that, it's hard to get a rookie to contribute to a project that hasn't gotten off the ground.... im sure if you started getting things done and showing the results, you'd have more people jumping on the bandwagon.
This is very true, and it's why I wanted to get the ball rolling and show modders that their work will matter.
i dont mean to dissuade your idea, i like BA and i like the idea of it becoming IP free... it'll just take a hell of a lot of work to complete, and a hell of a lot of organization from the get-go. on a positive note, if you DO get this going, you can count on me to do at least one labs worth of units (a lab and the units it creates... probably something like core hovers or seaplanes)
It would actually be nice if the same modeller did an entire lab, since we would naturally see a more coherent theme emerge.
anyways have a look at the remakes that already exist, cremuss and mr D have a ton of units that (IIRC) are free to use in a mod, and as well treeform posted some ARM vech remakes that look pretty damned cool. and if you're worried about artwork, try to learn BOS... that way you can help artists.
It was Cremuss and Mr D's units that inspired me to do this in the first place - they're beautiful, and even TheFatController can agree with that ;)
BaNa
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

Post by BaNa »

a mutator is probably the perfect way to do this, who cares about bloat when we have 50 meg maps?

++ concept
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Pxtl
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Re: Replacing the models with something beautiful and free

Post by Pxtl »

But aren't Cremuss and Mr. D's remakes ineligible, since they're quite obviously based on Arm and Core units?

Or is the goal here to convert BA into TA Fan-art instead of being TA piracy.

'cause as much as we like to pretend otherwise... legally they're the same thing.

Smoth could be sued for Copyright infringement just as well as BA could. The only difference is that the DMCA might also be applicable to BA, but that's a hell of a stretch.
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